---
title: "Shlomo’s Video Interview Transcript"
canonical: https://www.biezunski.com/holocaust-testimony/transcript
format: text/markdown
---
# Shlomo’s Video Interview Transcript
Human-readable page: https://www.biezunski.com/holocaust-testimony/transcript
On May 12, 1988, Shlomo sat for an interview, sharing his life story in his own words. The transcript below provides a detailed record of his testimony, allowing readers to locate specific words or phrases within his account of the Holocaust.

1 00:00:24,320 –> 00:00:27,599 Good afternoon, my name is Jeanie Miller.

2 00:00:27,599 –> 00:00:29,720 I am a member of the Kean College Oral

3 00:00:29,720 –> 00:00:31,640 Testimonies Project of the

4 00:00:31,640 –> 00:00:34,160 Holocaust Resource Center. We are

5 00:00:34,160 –> 00:00:36,559 affiliated with the Video Archives for

6 00:00:36,559 –> 00:00:39,440 Holocaust Testimonies at the Sterling

7 00:00:39,440 –> 00:00:42,680 Library of Yale University. Sharing the

8 00:00:42,680 –> 00:00:46,079 interview with me is Bernard Weinstein.

9 00:00:46,079 –> 00:00:49,320 We are privileged to welcome Shlomo

10 00:00:49,320 –> 00:00:52,280 Biezunski, a survivor presently living in

11 00:00:52,280 –> 00:00:55,160 Fair Lawn, New Jersey, who has generously

12 00:00:55,160 –> 00:00:58,039 volunteered to give testimony about his

13 00:00:58,039 –> 00:01:00,439 experiences before, during,

14 00:01:00,440 –> 00:01:03,439 and after the Holocaust.

15 00:01:03,439 –> 00:01:05,920 Welcome Mr. Biezunski. I wonder if you

16 00:01:05,920 –> 00:01:07,640 could tell us about the town that

17 00:01:07,640 –> 00:01:10,439 you were born in and were growing up in?

18 00:01:10,439 –> 00:01:14,600 I was born on May 13,

19 00:01:14,600 –> 00:01:19,240 1926 in the town of Łódź in Poland.

20 00:01:19,240 –> 00:01:22,040 This was a big industrial center –

21 00:01:22,040 –> 00:01:24,479 textiles. We used to call it before the war

22 00:01:24,479 –> 00:01:27,439 the Manchester of Poland. Many of the

23 00:01:27,439 –> 00:01:30,200 factories used to employ hundreds, even

24 00:01:30,200 –> 00:01:34,960 thousands of people and there was a

25 00:01:34,960 –> 00:01:39,600 population of almost 600,000.

26 00:01:39,600 –> 00:01:42,720 What percentage was Jews?

27 00:01:42,720 –> 00:01:46,159 The percentage was – one-third was Jews.

28 00:01:46,159 –> 00:01:49,920 You have – many people who developed

29 00:01:49,920 –> 00:01:51,799 the silk industry and textile industry

30 00:01:51,799 –> 00:01:54,040 in Paterson, New Jersey came from Łódź.

31 00:01:54,040 –> 00:01:56,399 It’s known – they brought – by coming

32 00:01:56,400 –> 00:01:58,839 to the United States, they brought with them

33 00:01:58,840 –> 00:02:01,398 the skills and they developed it here.

34 00:02:01,399 –> 00:02:02,977 Like I said, one-third of the

35 00:02:03,177 –> 00:02:05,039 population were Jews, were very

36 00:02:05,039 –> 00:02:08,720 involved in the trade profession and took a

37 00:02:08,720 –> 00:02:12,480 very active life in

38 00:02:12,480 –> 00:02:15,560 Jewish culture – and we actually

39 00:02:15,560 –> 00:02:19,120 had even two newspapers, that my father

40 00:02:19,120 –> 00:02:23,560 in Yiddish used to read. I remember there was Der Haynt

41 00:02:23,560 –> 00:02:26,080 and Der Moment, that was the two Jewish –

42 00:02:26,080 –> 00:02:37,000 there was a very vibrant city and my father –

43 00:02:37,000 –> 00:02:39,879 studied pharmacy in Köln.

44 00:02:39,879 –> 00:02:43,840 He had a brother. From 1918 –

45 00:02:43,840 –> 00:02:47,519 to 1920, he was in Germany, at that time, in

46 00:02:47,519 –> 00:02:50,040 the Köln University – I understand that it only

47 00:02:50,040 –> 00:02:52,680 took two years at that time to get a –

48 00:02:52,680 –> 00:02:55,360 and we had a like we call a drugstore

49 00:02:55,360 –> 00:03:00,480 here, in Łódź.

50 00:03:00,480 –> 00:03:05,040 And actually I had only an older sister,

51 00:03:05,040 –> 00:03:07,640 her name was Manya, she was born on, I don’t remember

52 00:03:07,640 –> 00:03:12,400 the date, but she was born in October 1920.

53 00:03:13,040 –> 00:03:15,720 I remember those telling that my

54 00:03:15,720 –> 00:03:18,280 father came in 1920 back to Poland and he

55 00:03:18,280 –> 00:03:21,400 went to the Army and fought with the

56 00:03:21,400 –> 00:03:24,319 Polish Army by defeating the Communists.

57 00:03:24,319 –> 00:03:29,040 It was in a famous battle, it was called the

58 00:03:29,040 –> 00:03:32,280 Miracle on the Vistula. It was a defeat for the Bolshevik Army

59 00:03:32,280 –> 00:03:35,920 at that time, the Poles under Marshal Piłsudski,

60 00:03:35,920 –> 00:03:38,439 he was a Polish marshal, and Poland became an

61 00:03:38,439 –> 00:03:42,840 independent state. We belonged to the middle class.

62 00:03:42,840 –> 00:03:46,239 We used to be members in a local synagogue –

63 00:03:46,239 –> 00:03:53,799 it was in the neighborhood. We lived on

64 00:03:53,799 –> 00:03:58,500 the street was named Narutowicza, number 40.

65 00:03:58,501 –> 00:04:01,239 It was in one of the best parts of

66 00:04:01,239 –> 00:04:03,519 Łódź. Next to us was a big

67 00:04:03,519 –> 00:04:07,760 hotel – Polonia, the name was Polonia.

68 00:04:07,760 –> 00:04:10,959 There was a main street – Piotrkowska street – it was

69 00:04:10,959 –> 00:04:14,120 the main throughway: all the cinemas

70 00:04:14,120 –> 00:04:16,478 and theaters and where the young people

71 00:04:16,478 –> 00:04:19,798 used to promenade, forth and back – it was

72 00:04:19,798 –> 00:04:23,520 a short distance. We lived on a fourth floor,

73 00:04:23,520 –> 00:04:30,840 on a five floor house, it was a very modern house

74 00:04:30,840 –> 00:04:34,080 with an elevator, at that time which was not so

75 00:04:34,080 –> 00:04:39,400 very popular in Poland. Actually, we were the middle class

76 00:04:39,400 –> 00:04:42,240 but compared to our neighbors we were

77 00:04:42,240 –> 00:04:44,960 you can say, very poor, because many

78 00:04:44,960 –> 00:04:47,120 of our neighbors were very rich and very

79 00:04:47,120 –> 00:04:52,320 influential people in the industrial part of

80 00:04:52,320 –> 00:04:57,600 Łódź. But we had the six, seven room

81 00:04:57,600 –> 00:05:00,360 apartment. My mother had always

82 00:05:00,360 –> 00:05:03,360 help. A maid, a young

83 00:05:03,360 –> 00:05:06,080 girl, a Polish girl, used to help out with the

84 00:05:06,080 –> 00:05:10,280 household, and downstairs we had our

85 00:05:10,280 –> 00:05:12,360 store. My father, every morning,

86 00:05:12,360 –> 00:05:15,199 used to go downstairs and he had also a

87 00:05:15,199 –> 00:05:19,800 help and assistant, a girl, and I used to –

88 00:05:19,800 –> 00:05:23,720 at the age of six, I started to attend a

89 00:05:23,720 –> 00:05:25,960 private school, Jewish private school, it was

90 00:05:25,960 –> 00:05:28,919 normal that the education age in Poland

91 00:05:28,919 –> 00:05:30,680 was from seven, you went to first grade, but

92 00:05:30,680 –> 00:05:32,039 if you went to a private school you

93 00:05:32,039 –> 00:05:34,960 could start at the age of six.

94 00:05:34,960 –> 00:05:38,360 And all my life, actually the next

95 00:05:38,360 –> 00:05:42,120 six years, I went to the private school.

96 00:05:42,120 –> 00:05:45,679 I was a very good reader.

97 00:05:45,680 –> 00:05:48,479 I read very well, we had a library not

98 00:05:48,479 –> 00:05:52,000 far, a private library, and I was

99 00:05:52,000 –> 00:05:54,720 very interested in reading

100 00:05:54,720 –> 00:05:58,280 different books like Zane Grey and Karl

101 00:05:58,280 –> 00:06:02,600 May and Jack London and

102 00:06:02,600 –> 00:06:05,720 Victor Hugo – even at a very early age.

103 00:06:05,720 –> 00:06:09,440 And I also took interest by

104 00:06:09,440 –> 00:06:12,440 reading newspapers. I remember being the

105 00:06:12,440 –> 00:06:15,880 age of nine – it was the beginning

106 00:06:15,880 –> 00:06:19,280 of the Ethiopian war with

107 00:06:19,280 –> 00:06:21,680 Italy – all the atrocities and

108 00:06:21,680 –> 00:06:24,520 Haile Selassie, I remember there was a song

109 00:06:24,520 –> 00:06:26,680 in Polish that they wrote, what I even still

110 00:06:26,680 –> 00:06:29,199 remember, that they wrote about the war.

111 00:06:29,199 –> 00:06:32,400 And after was the civil war in Spain

112 00:06:32,400 –> 00:06:35,360 in 1936, it started and I remember as a

113 00:06:35,360 –> 00:06:39,199 kid I was very active, very

114 00:06:39,199 –> 00:06:42,280 interested in what’s going

115 00:06:42,280 –> 00:06:46,639 on. I had an older sister, we had a very

116 00:06:46,639 –> 00:06:48,800 comfortable and pleasant life she went

117 00:06:48,800 –> 00:06:52,360 actually already when the war broke out she was

118 00:06:52,360 –> 00:06:56,199 18 and she finished a high school, was

119 00:06:56,199 –> 00:07:02,400 was a high school but also had a commercial background.,

120 00:07:02,400 –> 00:07:05,720 Every year, we used to go rent

121 00:07:05,720 –> 00:07:07,639 a cottage like here in the Catskills

122 00:07:07,639 –> 00:07:09,319 we used to go over there next to Łódź

123 00:07:09,319 –> 00:07:12,199 very wooded areas what we used to

124 00:07:12,199 –> 00:07:16,759 rent a cottage and on Sunday was my

125 00:07:16,759 –> 00:07:19,280 father used to come like Sunday, Saturday

126 00:07:19,280 –> 00:07:21,120 night to visit the family and

127 00:07:21,120 –> 00:07:23,280 in Monday morning he used to go by train back.

128 00:07:23,280 –> 00:07:28,680 And in the last year, my

129 00:07:28,680 –> 00:07:31,039 parents bought me a new

130 00:07:31,039 –> 00:07:33,840 bicycle, English-made bicycle

131 00:07:33,840 –> 00:07:36,599 and the last year of the war we actually

132 00:07:36,599 –> 00:07:38,440 stayed over there, we couldn’t get back,

133 00:07:38,440 –> 00:07:40,919 when the war broke out. I remember

134 00:07:40,919 –> 00:07:42,560 I was standing over there and seeing the

135 00:07:42,560 –> 00:07:45,159 Polish Army when they recede,

136 00:07:45,159 –> 00:07:46,960 they went back, they left Łódź and

137 00:07:46,960 –> 00:07:49,280 went back to Warsaw and I was standing

138 00:07:49,280 –> 00:07:51,120 with my bicycle and a Polish soldier

139 00:07:51,120 –> 00:07:53,639 came and took the bicycle away and just

140 00:07:53,639 –> 00:07:56,759 said what’s that, I couldn’t – but

141 00:07:56,759 –> 00:08:00,759 we knew that the war is going on

142 00:08:00,759 –> 00:08:03,960 and we had a very hard time to come back

143 00:08:03,960 –> 00:08:06,520 because there was no way we, at that time

144 00:08:06,520 –> 00:08:08,680 when you went you had a part of your

145 00:08:08,680 –> 00:08:10,639 furniture and special clothes you took

146 00:08:10,639 –> 00:08:13,039 to the summer, used to have a truck bring

147 00:08:13,039 –> 00:08:15,759 you back and forth, there was nobody to take us, we

148 00:08:15,759 –> 00:08:17,560 had everything to leave and the neighbor

149 00:08:17,560 –> 00:08:21,000 had a car, he took us and brought us home and

150 00:08:21,000 –> 00:08:24,080 my mother was very sick, she got

151 00:08:24,080 –> 00:08:27,199 dysentery from that time.

152 00:08:27,199 –> 00:08:29,599 Before we go forward, I’d like to just

153 00:08:29,599 –> 00:08:32,120 go back a little bit and ask a couple of

154 00:08:32,120 –> 00:08:35,599 questions. First, in in the years

155 00:08:35,599 –> 00:08:40,799 before the war what did being Jewish mean to you?

156 00:08:40,799 –> 00:08:45,880 Our town was a workers’ town, there was a

157 00:08:45,880 –> 00:08:48,040 very strong socialist movement.

158 00:08:48,040 –> 00:08:50,320 We knew that the Jews in Warsaw were very, you

159 00:08:50,320 –> 00:08:52,720 know treated very bad because the

160 00:08:52,720 –> 00:08:55,120 national organization were very

161 00:08:55,120 –> 00:08:57,560 anti-Semitic. We had also an anti-Semitic

162 00:08:57,560 –> 00:09:02,240 organization in Łódź, but they

163 00:09:02,240 –> 00:09:05,279 like I said the workers are

164 00:09:05,279 –> 00:09:08,040 very well organized and the workers many

165 00:09:08,040 –> 00:09:10,279 of the factories belonged to Jews and they

166 00:09:10,279 –> 00:09:12,240 were very well treated by the Jewish

167 00:09:12,240 –> 00:09:16,200 owners. Like we had over there

168 00:09:16,200 –> 00:09:20,680 Widzew Manufaktura, Mr. Max Kohn was the owner and

169 00:09:20,680 –> 00:09:22,800 the director was Rabinovich – David

170 00:09:22,800 –> 00:09:25,320 Rabinovich – and he lived in our, in the

171 00:09:25,320 –> 00:09:27,160 same house where we

172 00:09:27,160 –> 00:09:30,839 lived. And I remember the first time

173 00:09:30,839 –> 00:09:33,399 when the workers marched

174 00:09:33,399 –> 00:09:35,360 the police even stood inside the house

175 00:09:35,360 –> 00:09:37,560 and they didn’t trust them to show up.

176 00:09:37,560 –> 00:09:41,920 And actually I never experienced

177 00:09:41,920 –> 00:09:45,800 some personal anti-Semitism.

178 00:09:45,800 –> 00:09:49,480 In fact, I had neighbors, they

179 00:09:49,480 –> 00:09:51,240 had a big grocery story, and they had

180 00:09:51,240 –> 00:09:55,040 two sons and the two kids were my friends

181 00:09:55,040 –> 00:09:57,200 we used to go – across the home

182 00:09:57,200 –> 00:09:59,839 was a big park, and winter time

183 00:09:59,839 –> 00:10:02,760 we used to ride a sled – and I had a big

184 00:10:02,760 –> 00:10:05,480 Canadian sled it was a very

185 00:10:05,480 –> 00:10:08,079 special sled and they had a big

186 00:10:08,079 –> 00:10:10,120 dog and we all three used to go over

187 00:10:10,120 –> 00:10:11,800 there and the dog used to pull us with a

188 00:10:11,800 –> 00:10:14,399 sled, they had a big German Shepherd.

189 00:10:14,399 –> 00:10:17,160 But my mother was happy by having

190 00:10:17,160 –> 00:10:18,680 those friends because they all protected

191 00:10:18,680 –> 00:10:20,600 me from the other Polish kids

192 00:10:20,600 –> 00:10:22,320 nobody could touch me, those

193 00:10:22,320 –> 00:10:25,399 those boys used to protect and I was

194 00:10:25,399 –> 00:10:31,200 very welcome in their home – but

195 00:10:31,200 –> 00:10:34,040 personally, I didn’t have any trouble

196 00:10:34,040 –> 00:10:37,600 with anti-Semitism – my sister she

197 00:10:37,600 –> 00:10:40,279 belonged to the paramilitary organization

198 00:10:40,279 –> 00:10:42,279 with going to school, every kid

199 00:10:42,279 –> 00:10:44,399 like every kid in the high

200 00:10:44,399 –> 00:10:47,160 school had to – and I remember she used to

201 00:10:47,160 –> 00:10:49,519 come home, used to have the

202 00:10:49,519 –> 00:10:52,760 dark brown – brown shoes like khaki

203 00:10:52,760 –> 00:10:55,880 she even – got even a small

204 00:10:55,880 –> 00:10:58,639 medal for shooting a small medal

205 00:10:58,639 –> 00:11:01,800 but her name, I don’t know, was

206 00:11:01,800 –> 00:11:04,440 Marisha – in Polish they call it, outside

207 00:11:04,440 –> 00:11:08,279 Marisha Biezunska, that was an extreme Polish name

208 00:11:08,279 –> 00:11:10,480 Biezunski – it’s not a Jewish name, it’s an

209 00:11:10,480 –> 00:11:14,240 extreme Polish name and maybe she

210 00:11:14,240 –> 00:11:17,000 maybe she escaped over there

211 00:11:17,000 –> 00:11:19,320 in the organization and innuendos to being

212 00:11:19,320 –> 00:11:21,079 Jewish or anything, you

213 00:11:21,079 –> 00:11:23,680 know. But we know what’s happened to the

214 00:11:23,680 –> 00:11:26,240 Jews that in Poland at

215 00:11:26,240 –> 00:11:28,399 that time there was like in Krakow

216 00:11:28,399 –> 00:11:31,079 and Warsaw universities, the Jews were not allowed to sit

217 00:11:31,079 –> 00:11:32,279 there was a strike of the

218 00:11:32,279 –> 00:11:36,079 Polish students, even before the war that they

219 00:11:36,079 –> 00:11:37,320 didn’t want to sit with the Jewish

220 00:11:37,320 –> 00:11:38,880 students together they had to

221 00:11:38,880 –> 00:11:42,800 stand on the side. But like the Jews

222 00:11:42,800 –> 00:11:44,680 always find a way out they send the

223 00:11:44,680 –> 00:11:46,639 children to Germany to study

224 00:11:46,639 –> 00:11:50,680 like my sister had a boyfriend his

225 00:11:50,680 –> 00:11:53,399 name was Judenherz. I don’t know what

226 00:11:53,399 –> 00:11:56,040 was his first name, I can’t remember – but he was

227 00:11:56,040 –> 00:11:57,880 a textile engineer and he studied

228 00:11:57,880 –> 00:12:01,240 actually in Germany

229 00:12:02,079 –> 00:12:05,200 oh, I know Mr. Rabinovich, my neighbor, had a

230 00:12:05,200 –> 00:12:08,360 son studying in England – and

231 00:12:08,360 –> 00:12:10,040 before the war broke out he came to the

232 00:12:10,040 –> 00:12:12,360 store, my father, and he says Mr. Biezunski

233 00:12:12,360 –> 00:12:14,360 there will be no war, I just came from England

234 00:12:14,360 –> 00:12:17,399 and I heard Chamberlain talking

235 00:12:17,399 –> 00:12:20,000 and the day after, two days after, the

236 00:12:20,000 –> 00:12:23,320 Germans attacked Poland. That actually I was

237 00:12:23,320 –> 00:12:27,399 never mistreated in a physical way but

238 00:12:27,399 –> 00:12:29,399 like you say as a Jew

239 00:12:29,399 –> 00:12:31,120 you had to stay out of trouble

240 00:12:31,120 –> 00:12:34,079 that was the perception what

241 00:12:34,079 –> 00:12:37,839 was what they call it in Hebrew they

242 00:12:37,839 –> 00:12:39,880 call it a Galut living in a

243 00:12:39,880 –> 00:12:42,839 strange country – my family lived

244 00:12:42,839 –> 00:12:47,240 maybe for for 500, 600 years in Poland and

245 00:12:47,240 –> 00:12:49,839 they were invited by the Polish King

246 00:12:49,839 –> 00:12:52,720 Wladyslaw, I don’t remember his

247 00:12:52,720 –> 00:12:54,680 name, the history, where he invited the

248 00:12:54,680 –> 00:12:58,480 maybe 700 years back to develop

249 00:12:58,480 –> 00:12:59,959 the commerce

250 00:12:59,959 –> 00:13:01,959 but for some reason the

251 00:13:01,959 –> 00:13:05,120 Catholic Church has had a very

252 00:13:05,120 –> 00:13:08,000 big influence on the people and

253 00:13:08,000 –> 00:13:10,120 the perception even my two

254 00:13:10,120 –> 00:13:12,920 Polish friends that I had – this is very

255 00:13:12,920 –> 00:13:15,560 interesting – when it comes to Good Friday

256 00:13:15,560 –> 00:13:17,519 they used to say

257 00:13:17,519 –> 00:13:19,560 “you killed our God” and I

258 00:13:19,560 –> 00:13:21,079 didn’t know the first time I was a

259 00:13:21,079 –> 00:13:23,480 little – what do you mean – I asked

260 00:13:23,480 –> 00:13:27,040 my mother what is, which God I killed?

261 00:13:27,040 –> 00:13:28,399 and she explained. They said

262 00:13:28,399 –> 00:13:30,040 this to you? They said it to me, they didn’t

263 00:13:30,040 –> 00:13:31,720 even play a day with me but

264 00:13:31,720 –> 00:13:34,959 after days everything is because the

265 00:13:34,959 –> 00:13:37,480 Catholic Church they used to

266 00:13:37,480 –> 00:13:39,480 infame the name of the Jews in

267 00:13:39,480 –> 00:13:41,199 the small villages over there as a

268 00:13:41,199 –> 00:13:43,720 priest, he was a king. – when he

269 00:13:43,720 –> 00:13:46,160 said “the black cat is a Jew”, then the black cat

270 00:13:46,160 –> 00:13:48,680 is a Jew everything and you

271 00:13:48,680 –> 00:13:51,600 know for 2,000 years, the Jews were persecuted

272 00:13:51,600 –> 00:13:54,800 because of the notions that they killed Christ and

273 00:13:54,800 –> 00:13:56,519 then they used to call us “Christ killer”.

274 00:13:56,519 –> 00:13:58,639 As a young boy, how did you take

275 00:13:58,639 –> 00:14:00,880 that – that kind

276 00:14:00,880 –> 00:14:04,560 of statement? I tell you, I was – at first

277 00:14:04,560 –> 00:14:06,560 I was shocked, I didn’t understand that, I

278 00:14:06,560 –> 00:14:08,600 didn’t know there a story, but when my

279 00:14:08,600 –> 00:14:10,759 mother explained to me, she says

280 00:14:10,759 –> 00:14:12,480 they don’t know better you cannot

281 00:14:12,480 –> 00:14:14,880 blame them

282 00:14:14,880 –> 00:14:17,160 because that what they are taught

283 00:14:17,160 –> 00:14:20,040 they go to Sunday school and that is

284 00:14:20,040 –> 00:14:21,759 what the priests are teaching them,

285 00:14:21,759 –> 00:14:24,279 they keep the flame of

286 00:14:24,279 –> 00:14:27,079 hatred always burning. I wanted

287 00:14:27,079 –> 00:14:29,399 to know about your Jewish home life – did

288 00:14:29,399 –> 00:14:30,959 you go to the synagogue and did you

289 00:14:30,959 –> 00:14:35,000 celebrate? No, you see,

290 00:14:35,600 –> 00:14:40,320 we actually used to have Saturday, the

291 00:14:40,320 –> 00:14:42,920 store open, because we were not far

292 00:14:42,920 –> 00:14:46,199 across from the main station,

293 00:14:46,199 –> 00:14:49,000 railroad station, and all the peasants – not

294 00:14:49,000 –> 00:14:50,880 the poor peasant, but the rich peasant – used

295 00:14:50,880 –> 00:14:53,959 to come to to town for shopping

296 00:14:53,959 –> 00:14:56,519 Saturday and buy cosmetics,

297 00:14:56,519 –> 00:14:58,880 perfumes, things like that.

298 00:14:58,880 –> 00:15:00,920 And that was a very important day.

299 00:15:00,920 –> 00:15:02,639 You made on a Saturday, the

300 00:15:02,639 –> 00:15:05,040 income was much larger than during the

301 00:15:05,040 –> 00:15:08,279 week and for material purposes

302 00:15:08,279 –> 00:15:11,639 the door has to be open Saturday. But

303 00:15:11,639 –> 00:15:15,000 we observed Friday night. We used

304 00:15:15,000 –> 00:15:17,800 to have all the family, a really

305 00:15:17,800 –> 00:15:19,480 ritual Friday

306 00:15:19,480 –> 00:15:23,279 night evening meal with fish and meat and

307 00:15:23,279 –> 00:15:26,320 cake and even coffee. I remember

308 00:15:26,320 –> 00:15:28,120 coming home from school I used to get a

309 00:15:28,120 –> 00:15:30,480 light meal like a hamburger

310 00:15:30,480 –> 00:15:35,680 because in the evening we had a big meal.

311 00:15:35,720 –> 00:15:38,120 Did you go to Hebrew school?

312 00:15:38,120 –> 00:15:42,199 Yes, we went to Hebrew school.

313 00:15:42,199 –> 00:15:44,319 I went to a private Jewish, private

314 00:15:44,319 –> 00:15:46,880 school – always Hebrew was one of those –

315 00:15:46,880 –> 00:15:50,240 it’s amazing that I was always so

316 00:15:50,240 –> 00:15:52,759 bad in Hebrew, then I came to Israel

317 00:15:52,759 –> 00:15:56,079 and I speak Hebrew. Now I always – I can

318 00:15:56,079 –> 00:15:57,680 remember that the teacher said he’s a

319 00:15:57,680 –> 00:16:00,800 terrific student, only the Hebrew he

320 00:16:00,800 –> 00:16:03,959 hasn’t got it. For some reason, I couldn’t

321 00:16:03,959 –> 00:16:07,360 catch on with the Hebrew. But I did very

322 00:16:07,360 –> 00:16:08,519 well in Israel.

323 00:16:08,519 –> 00:16:11,639 And we used to go to the holidays

324 00:16:11,639 –> 00:16:13,440 I cannot say that my father used to go

325 00:16:13,440 –> 00:16:15,920 every Friday. No, we used to go on

326 00:16:15,920 –> 00:16:19,959 big holidays like Passover, Yom Kippur,

327 00:16:19,959 –> 00:16:22,759 then two days of the new year –

328 00:16:22,759 –> 00:16:25,839 the main holidays used to be observed.

329 00:16:25,839 –> 00:16:29,639 When did you notice that

330 00:16:29,639 –> 00:16:32,079 your environment began to change

331 00:16:32,079 –> 00:16:34,480 because of the war? At this time, when you

332 00:16:34,480 –> 00:16:36,560 went on a summer retreat?

333 00:16:36,561 –> 00:16:40,600 We came to the summer retreat, the man brought

334 00:16:40,600 –> 00:16:43,240 us back and my mom’s mother had to go

335 00:16:43,240 –> 00:16:46,600 to the hospital. And the hospital at that time

336 00:16:46,600 –> 00:16:49,360 was very crowded because already the

337 00:16:49,360 –> 00:16:52,560 war was in progress. But Łódź was bombed

338 00:16:52,560 –> 00:16:56,399 and was not damaged because

339 00:16:56,399 –> 00:17:02,000 from what I understand, the commander –

340 00:17:02,000 –> 00:17:05,240 was named Frank – and Frank is a Volksdeutsch

341 00:17:05,240 –> 00:17:08,679 they call it Volksdeutsch, it was a Polish-German.

342 00:17:08,679 –> 00:17:12,000 For some reason, they bombed a little

343 00:17:12,000 –> 00:17:14,480 but they shelled it actually and

344 00:17:14,480 –> 00:17:17,079 after six days the German were in Łódź – that’s it.

345 00:17:17,079 –> 00:17:19,520 You’re speaking of Hans Frank the

346 00:17:19,520 –> 00:17:21,839 governor general? No, no, no –

347 00:17:21,839 –> 00:17:23,839 another Frank.

348 00:17:23,839 –> 00:17:27,520 And the war was – that’s it.

349 00:17:27,520 –> 00:17:31,440 In six days, Warsaw was encircled

350 00:17:31,440 –> 00:17:33,960 and then Łódź was. They were

351 00:17:33,960 –> 00:17:37,120 marching, I remember they put a big

352 00:17:37,120 –> 00:17:41,480 proclamation: the whole population of Łódź has to come

353 00:17:41,480 –> 00:17:43,880 out to the main street Piotrkowska

354 00:17:43,880 –> 00:17:51,039 … from the west, and we have

355 00:17:51,039 –> 00:17:54,120 to show appreciation to the

356 00:17:54,120 –> 00:17:57,320 victorious German army. And believe it or not

357 00:17:57,320 –> 00:17:59,679 everybody went, I went myself, and I

358 00:17:59,679 –> 00:18:03,080 was very impressed at that time. Were the proclamations

359 00:18:03,080 –> 00:18:05,480 in Polish? No, in German, in Polish and in German.

360 00:18:05,480 –> 00:18:07,919 Yes, and there was a main city hall and

361 00:18:07,919 –> 00:18:10,080 they put on city hall a flag out

362 00:18:10,080 –> 00:18:12,919 from the fifth story, the big

363 00:18:12,919 –> 00:18:14,960 swastika, from all the front.

364 00:18:14,960 –> 00:18:18,000 And as a kid I went also

365 00:18:18,000 –> 00:18:21,159 and I was very, very – they

366 00:18:21,159 –> 00:18:22,880 came with a tremendous might, everything.

367 00:18:22,880 –> 00:18:24,520 Like the Polish soldier used to march – they

368 00:18:24,520 –> 00:18:26,400 came all motorized with cars,

369 00:18:26,400 –> 00:18:28,320 with trucks, with tanks, even the

370 00:18:28,320 –> 00:18:30,360 horses used to be on track they have

371 00:18:30,360 –> 00:18:32,080 some kind cavalry.

372 00:18:32,080 –> 00:18:36,480 And the hotel next to us, Polonia

373 00:18:36,480 –> 00:18:38,919 they throw all the people out –

374 00:18:38,919 –> 00:18:44,919 it was all in Jewish ownership, in fact, and they put

375 00:18:44,919 –> 00:18:48,280 officers over there, the German officers in there

376 00:18:48,280 –> 00:18:50,039 and you head over there, right away,

377 00:18:50,039 –> 00:18:53,000 a German soldier standing guard.

378 00:18:53,000 –> 00:18:55,600 You went by, you had to bow and take your

379 00:18:55,600 –> 00:18:58,799 hat off – this was a – then if a German

380 00:18:58,799 –> 00:19:01,120 soldier walked by you had to go off the

381 00:19:01,120 –> 00:19:04,480 street and let him pass.

382 00:19:04,480 –> 00:19:07,480 And you have to greet him, over there people

383 00:19:07,480 –> 00:19:08,960 wear hats, you have to take your hat off.

384 00:19:08,960 –> 00:19:11,720 How soon after the invasion did this happen?

385 00:19:11,720 –> 00:19:18,080 This was in the first month. This was September,

386 00:19:18,080 –> 00:19:23,720 October, November, December, was the army, in fact,

387 00:19:23,720 –> 00:19:27,120 in charge of Łódź. They didn’t

388 00:19:27,120 –> 00:19:29,960 actually discriminate against the Jews

389 00:19:29,960 –> 00:19:34,320 everybody was included – the Poles and the

390 00:19:34,320 –> 00:19:37,559 Jews and in fact we had a booming

391 00:19:37,559 –> 00:19:40,559 business going we had soaps

392 00:19:40,559 –> 00:19:43,559 in a big storage over there

393 00:19:43,559 –> 00:19:46,080 the Palmolive, Colgate, and others.

394 00:19:46,080 –> 00:19:48,919 We had all the best cosmetics in there

395 00:19:48,919 –> 00:19:51,000 from all the international made –

396 00:19:51,000 –> 00:19:53,280 from Germany, from England, from

397 00:19:53,280 –> 00:19:55,799 America and we had soaps and the Germans

398 00:19:55,799 –> 00:19:57,840 were crazy after soaps. They didn’t, for

399 00:19:57,840 –> 00:19:59,480 some reason, didn’t have enough soap.

400 00:19:59,480 –> 00:20:02,039 We had soap where the fragrance was

401 00:20:02,039 –> 00:20:03,720 gone, but the soap was good.

402 00:20:03,720 –> 00:20:05,520 Normally, you cannot sell it, but they used

403 00:20:05,520 –> 00:20:08,200 to buy cartons of it to send home

404 00:20:08,200 –> 00:20:10,280 they didn’t have any soap over there.

405 00:20:10,280 –> 00:20:12,679 We had for women milk

406 00:20:12,679 –> 00:20:15,400 like for skin, they used to

407 00:20:15,400 –> 00:20:16,960 buy everything. They used to pay – they had

408 00:20:16,960 –> 00:20:18,960 a tremendous amount of money and they

409 00:20:18,960 –> 00:20:21,640 paid everything. It was interesting at

410 00:20:21,640 –> 00:20:24,559 that time the girl we had to work

411 00:20:24,559 –> 00:20:28,080 with us, our maid, left for the village and

412 00:20:28,080 –> 00:20:30,039 also the girl my father employed in

413 00:20:30,039 –> 00:20:33,799 the store, she left, and we had a girl from

414 00:20:33,799 –> 00:20:35,760 a neighbor, she was a Jewish girl, but she

415 00:20:35,760 –> 00:20:38,520 looked more German than

416 00:20:38,520 –> 00:20:41,200 the Germans. Long blonde hair,

417 00:20:41,200 –> 00:20:44,799 and name was Eva. And she helped out

418 00:20:44,799 –> 00:20:46,480 my father and the Germans used to come

419 00:20:46,480 –> 00:20:49,520 in and they didn’t even realize because

420 00:20:49,520 –> 00:20:52,120 my father spoke perfect German

421 00:20:52,120 –> 00:20:56,000 my mother spoke perfect German and

422 00:20:56,000 –> 00:20:58,640 he said “you are Jews?” This is

423 00:20:58,640 –> 00:21:00,000 impossible – because they know the Jews

424 00:21:00,000 –> 00:21:02,120 from Der Stürmer with the nose

425 00:21:02,120 –> 00:21:04,320 and my father and my family we all had

426 00:21:04,320 –> 00:21:06,840 light eyes, straight nose

427 00:21:06,840 –> 00:21:09,280 narrow lips, and they only know the

428 00:21:09,280 –> 00:21:11,360 German – the Jews from some German’s

429 00:21:11,360 –> 00:21:15,159 Der Stürmer, it was the Stürmer – caricature

430 00:21:15,159 –> 00:21:16,880 And they didn’t believe – people like here,

431 00:21:16,880 –> 00:21:19,559 speak German, was so nice.

432 00:21:19,559 –> 00:21:21,520 And the officers used to

433 00:21:21,520 –> 00:21:23,279 sit over there we had like a small corner, you

434 00:21:23,279 –> 00:21:25,880 couldn’t get rid of them. They bought everything.

435 00:21:25,880 –> 00:21:32,040 But after, the Partei people came in – the

436 00:21:32,041 –> 00:21:38,640 Gestapo, the SS, and you had to put

437 00:21:38,640 –> 00:21:44,559 “Jewish store” in the window. And they used to take

438 00:21:44,559 –> 00:21:46,279 the Jews, pick them up in the street, to

439 00:21:46,279 –> 00:21:50,360 work for the German government and for the

440 00:21:50,360 –> 00:21:53,159 military, and everything. And in fact,

441 00:21:53,159 –> 00:21:58,120 we had a the big house – my mother,

442 00:21:58,120 –> 00:21:59,799 my grandmother had her room and she

443 00:21:59,799 –> 00:22:04,200 died before the war and then the maid,

444 00:22:04,200 –> 00:22:06,480 the service maid, also had a room – she left

445 00:22:06,480 –> 00:22:09,559 and we were left with a big house

446 00:22:09,559 –> 00:22:12,760 and they put a German officer, we had

447 00:22:12,760 –> 00:22:15,159 to take in like a tenant. German officer,

448 00:22:15,159 –> 00:22:22,880 with his servant – was a soldier servant.

449 00:22:22,880 –> 00:22:27,279 But he was an old timer, he was like an

450 00:22:27,279 –> 00:22:33,760 … administrative officer, not a fighting man

451 00:22:33,760 –> 00:22:37,120 In some way, he was very

452 00:22:37,120 –> 00:22:39,080 helpful because the Germans used to

453 00:22:39,080 –> 00:22:41,039 get drunk and used to look for

454 00:22:41,039 –> 00:22:43,080 women, for Jewish women, and raped them.

455 00:22:43,080 –> 00:22:45,480 And he said “your daughter

456 00:22:45,480 –> 00:22:47,279 might be in danger” but then he said

457 00:22:47,279 –> 00:22:48,960 “any knock on the door, you let me know”

458 00:22:48,960 –> 00:22:51,600 “don’t open it, I will get rid of them”

459 00:22:51,600 –> 00:22:56,520 … and sometimes he used to bring

460 00:22:56,520 –> 00:22:58,799 a loaf of bread because

461 00:22:58,799 –> 00:23:02,000 everything got a little tight and scarce

462 00:23:02,000 –> 00:23:04,600 But one day, for some reason, I

463 00:23:04,600 –> 00:23:06,200 don’t know – because my father is a

464 00:23:06,200 –> 00:23:08,039 pharmacist, he was an officer in the

465 00:23:08,039 –> 00:23:12,320 Polish Reserve, but in 1939 they

466 00:23:12,320 –> 00:23:13,679 didn’t call him to the

467 00:23:13,679 –> 00:23:16,400 army. But the there was German

468 00:23:16,400 –> 00:23:18,559 propaganda, they said

469 00:23:18,559 –> 00:23:20,640 everybody should go and and fight for

470 00:23:20,640 –> 00:23:23,159 Warsaw and a thousand people went

471 00:23:23,159 –> 00:23:25,279 for Warsaw marching, to help,

472 00:23:25,279 –> 00:23:27,880 to protect Warsaw. And they came with

473 00:23:27,880 –> 00:23:30,440 with planes and shot and

474 00:23:30,440 –> 00:23:32,440 massacred the people on the roads – all was

475 00:23:32,440 –> 00:23:34,360 blocked, the Polish Army couldn’t

476 00:23:34,360 –> 00:23:37,480 move, it almost like a some kind of plan

477 00:23:37,480 –> 00:23:40,640 to block the road. And my father

478 00:23:40,640 –> 00:23:43,799 he saw many men left and my father saw

479 00:23:43,799 –> 00:23:47,080 that it’s no business I never

480 00:23:47,080 –> 00:23:48,840 get a life … he was an old

481 00:23:48,840 –> 00:23:52,120 soldier, he came back. Was this the first

482 00:23:52,120 –> 00:23:56,600 real atrocity you saw taking place

483 00:23:56,600 –> 00:24:00,200 that involved mass killing.

484 00:24:00,200 –> 00:24:03,200 Yeah, I didn’t see it, I was home

485 00:24:03,200 –> 00:24:05,360 with my mother and my sister

486 00:24:05,360 –> 00:24:07,440 but he came and he says this is a provocation

487 00:24:07,440 –> 00:24:11,120 because the people … the thousands of people were going

488 00:24:11,120 –> 00:24:12,960 to Warsaw, they blocked the Polish army

489 00:24:12,960 –> 00:24:15,320 from reaching Warsaw and the Germans

490 00:24:15,320 –> 00:24:17,960 came with those Stuka planes

491 00:24:17,960 –> 00:24:20,760 and they just massacred them with machine

492 00:24:20,760 –> 00:24:24,200 gun fire – and he said

493 00:24:24,200 –> 00:24:25,960 after the first, second attack, he said

494 00:24:25,960 –> 00:24:28,600 there’s no way I’m going to do that. I’m

495 00:24:28,600 –> 00:24:31,200 going back to my family. What’s happened happened.

496 00:24:31,200 –> 00:24:34,679 We had a neighbor with a son and he

497 00:24:34,679 –> 00:24:37,039 went over there and he came back after

498 00:24:37,039 –> 00:24:42,840 the war, but they also didn’t survive – I don’t know.

499 00:24:42,840 –> 00:24:45,440 But after that, the worst thing that happened

500 00:24:45,440 –> 00:24:49,240 there was in January, I remember

501 00:24:49,240 –> 00:24:51,240 it was in January

502 00:24:51,240 –> 00:24:54,480 we had some prominent Jewish

503 00:24:54,480 –> 00:24:57,240 neighbors I told you – one of

504 00:24:57,240 –> 00:24:59,880 the neighbors there, Rabinovich, he had a car

505 00:24:59,880 –> 00:25:01,880 in Poland with a chauffeur – in

506 00:25:01,880 –> 00:25:04,960 Poland at that time, car with a chauffeur –

507 00:25:04,960 –> 00:25:07,039 you have to be very prominent – he

508 00:25:07,039 –> 00:25:09,760 took his wife with the chauffeur and he has a

509 00:25:09,760 –> 00:25:11,880 daughter, and two sons were in England at

510 00:25:11,880 –> 00:25:15,559 that time studying, and he went to Latvia,

511 00:25:15,559 –> 00:25:18,120 … and from that he went to

512 00:25:18,120 –> 00:25:21,240 I don’t know where, but he lived in

513 00:25:21,240 –> 00:25:26,840 Mexico after the war and

514 00:25:26,840 –> 00:25:30,919 what the Jews lost in Łódź

515 00:25:30,919 –> 00:25:33,200 you cannot even imagine – the

516 00:25:33,200 –> 00:25:35,559 factory, Max Kohn also I think was in

517 00:25:35,559 –> 00:25:37,840 Mexico, left for Mexico, but those

518 00:25:37,840 –> 00:25:39,320 people at that time were

519 00:25:39,320 –> 00:25:41,720 multi-millionaires. They had 10 thousands

520 00:25:41,720 –> 00:25:43,240 of people working for them

521 00:25:43,240 –> 00:25:45,760 in the textile. There was a family

522 00:25:45,760 –> 00:25:48,440 Poznański – they had like a

523 00:25:48,440 –> 00:25:50,159 castle, villa in the middle of Łódź

524 00:25:50,159 –> 00:25:52,720 surrounded by a big fence.

525 00:25:52,720 –> 00:25:55,720 They used to be customers of ours,

526 00:25:55,720 –> 00:25:58,760 by telephone, I used to deliver

527 00:25:58,760 –> 00:26:01,080 and we went to the Poznańskis and I used to go

528 00:26:01,080 –> 00:26:02,840 to deliver, I only just wanted to go

529 00:26:02,840 –> 00:26:05,000 in and see the riches of of the

530 00:26:05,000 –> 00:26:07,120 of those people, how they live, and they give

531 00:26:07,120 –> 00:26:09,559 you a good tip too. Now, we had

532 00:26:09,559 –> 00:26:10,960 the boy, Polish boy, used to

533 00:26:10,960 –> 00:26:13,799 deliver the packages, but over there I

534 00:26:13,799 –> 00:26:15,640 used to go because I wanted to

535 00:26:15,640 –> 00:26:23,399 see … many of them – and one day – we had

536 00:26:23,399 –> 00:26:24,960 many officees over there in the house and

537 00:26:24,960 –> 00:26:26,679 they never bothered my father because

538 00:26:26,679 –> 00:26:28,720 they knew there was a store and we had

539 00:26:28,720 –> 00:26:31,399 many German officers work, live

540 00:26:31,399 –> 00:26:35,399 each of the Jewish families

541 00:26:35,399 –> 00:26:37,840 they had so much room they had to take in.

542 00:26:37,840 –> 00:26:41,960 And we had like an inside yard,

543 00:26:41,960 –> 00:26:43,200 the whole inside yard was

544 00:26:43,200 –> 00:26:45,520 filled with German cars. We had a

545 00:26:45,520 –> 00:26:47,520 porter, a man who used to be in

546 00:26:47,520 –> 00:26:53,480 charge of their home, the yard,

547 00:26:53,480 –> 00:26:56,000 and everything. But they never bother my

548 00:26:56,000 –> 00:26:57,440 father because they knew him –

549 00:26:57,440 –> 00:26:59,000 sometimes you have to push the car to start,

550 00:26:59,000 –> 00:27:00,840 they used to pick up people from the

551 00:27:00,840 –> 00:27:03,520 street. But one day the Gestapo came and

552 00:27:03,520 –> 00:27:05,320 picked him up. It was in January.

553 00:27:05,320 –> 00:27:08,399 And they picked up 360 more

554 00:27:08,399 –> 00:27:10,960 Jewish people I don’t know … more than 300.

555 00:27:10,960 –> 00:27:13,840 And they took him over there, we

556 00:27:13,840 –> 00:27:16,320 used to have an electric tram station, you

557 00:27:16,320 –> 00:27:18,320 used to have to take a tram

558 00:27:18,320 –> 00:27:21,039 in Łódź. Trolley car. Yeah, trolley car.

559 00:27:21,039 –> 00:27:23,880 And – they shot him.

560 00:27:23,880 –> 00:27:27,600 Just shot them all to death.

561 00:27:27,600 –> 00:27:29,840 And the irony was that they

562 00:27:29,840 –> 00:27:33,080 contacted the family,

563 00:27:33,080 –> 00:27:36,000 and said to pick up the body.

564 00:27:36,000 –> 00:27:38,840 And my mother, my sister she was 18

565 00:27:38,840 –> 00:27:40,399 years old, she was afraid, they were

566 00:27:40,399 –> 00:27:43,399 two women. And I had the

567 00:27:43,399 –> 00:27:46,880 Canadian sled, the big sled, and I

568 00:27:46,880 –> 00:27:49,120 took another kid and we went over there

569 00:27:49,120 –> 00:27:52,919 and we took the body and covered it with …

570 00:27:52,919 –> 00:27:55,399 I don’t remember what was it and we

571 00:27:55,399 –> 00:27:58,720 schlepped all the way to the Jewish cemetery

572 00:27:58,720 –> 00:28:00,600 to get buried over there, all the bodies.

573 00:28:00,600 –> 00:28:05,200 How old were you? I was at that time

574 00:28:05,200 –> 00:28:08,159 almost 13 years old.

575 00:28:08,159 –> 00:28:11,159 That was a very tragic experience

576 00:28:11,159 –> 00:28:16,080 and it shattered our lives

577 00:28:18,080 –> 00:28:21,399 and luckily my mother was a

578 00:28:21,399 –> 00:28:24,120 very strong woman, a very

579 00:28:24,120 –> 00:28:28,799 business woman, and she

580 00:28:28,799 –> 00:28:34,760 said she took all the means to cancel,

581 00:28:34,760 –> 00:28:36,799 to close the store, to sell everything she

582 00:28:36,799 –> 00:28:41,000 knows. And in fact, in May, we got the

583 00:28:41,000 –> 00:28:44,159 order that we have to move to the Jewish

584 00:28:44,159 –> 00:28:46,760 quarter, the ghetto – it was all part of the

585 00:28:46,760 –> 00:28:51,279 Jewish quarters, the first time I came face-to-face

586 00:28:51,279 –> 00:28:53,320 with the Jewish proletariat, the Jewish

587 00:28:53,320 –> 00:28:55,080 working people. I never met people working

588 00:28:55,080 –> 00:28:57,039 in the factory Jews, but over there you had

589 00:28:57,039 –> 00:28:59,720 the part where Jewish workers used to

590 00:28:59,720 –> 00:29:01,799 have small factories, home factories

591 00:29:01,799 –> 00:29:05,200 to work in the home.

592 00:29:05,200 –> 00:29:08,000 And we rent a room … Jewish family

593 00:29:08,000 –> 00:29:11,279 and we only were allowed to

594 00:29:11,279 –> 00:29:14,240 take some bedding and some pots

595 00:29:14,240 –> 00:29:16,760 and everything has to be left

596 00:29:16,760 –> 00:29:20,279 and we just had to move in the ghetto, and we

597 00:29:20,279 –> 00:29:23,960 had over there a room in a family and we lived

598 00:29:23,960 –> 00:29:27,039 for six, seven months. After, they enlarged

599 00:29:27,039 –> 00:29:28,760 the ghetto they took

600 00:29:28,760 –> 00:29:31,600 a part of the Polish part of

601 00:29:31,600 –> 00:29:37,399 Łódź … they moved the Poles out and moved the Jews

602 00:29:37,399 –> 00:29:40,120 in then we get a house maybe four

603 00:29:40,120 –> 00:29:42,559 four rooms – a house with four rooms and

604 00:29:42,559 –> 00:29:45,200 each room was actually a living quarter

605 00:29:45,200 –> 00:29:47,720 everything was in their room, there was a pot and

606 00:29:47,720 –> 00:29:49,919 a stove in the middle and that’s

607 00:29:49,919 –> 00:29:52,559 it. That’s like the people live, with an out

608 00:29:52,559 –> 00:29:55,559 house outside, from brick, was lucky was

609 00:29:55,559 –> 00:29:57,720 from brick because the first winter we

610 00:29:57,720 –> 00:29:59,720 have nothing for indoor heat and all

611 00:29:59,720 –> 00:30:01,799 the fences between the houses were gone

612 00:30:01,799 –> 00:30:07,320 even the wooden door from the out house was stolen

613 00:30:07,320 –> 00:30:08,919 and if you had to go middle of the

614 00:30:08,919 –> 00:30:12,200 night you had to take something with you to cover it.

615 00:30:12,200 –> 00:30:14,440 Was it one family to a room or was it more than

616 00:30:14,440 –> 00:30:15,960 one family? No, no it was one family but

617 00:30:15,960 –> 00:30:18,000 that was – there was four families, four

618 00:30:18,000 –> 00:30:19,600 rooms. The whole house was four rooms, but

619 00:30:19,600 –> 00:30:22,240 separated – each one was made.

620 00:30:22,240 –> 00:30:25,919 The Polish family, they were with one big room

621 00:30:25,919 –> 00:30:28,240 in the winter time

622 00:30:28,240 –> 00:30:30,240 there was not enough to heat

623 00:30:30,240 –> 00:30:31,799 and I remember I used to read next to

624 00:30:31,799 –> 00:30:33,880 the stove, keep to the pipe, and read

625 00:30:33,880 –> 00:30:36,559 the book, it was very cold. But luckily we

626 00:30:36,559 –> 00:30:38,120 had good beddings with us

627 00:30:38,120 –> 00:30:41,000 with down, good stuff, and keep

628 00:30:41,000 –> 00:30:45,039 us warm and in fact in winter all walls

629 00:30:45,039 –> 00:30:47,760 from facing the window was all

630 00:30:47,760 –> 00:30:50,360 like was snow, it was ice

631 00:30:50,360 –> 00:30:52,559 because from the cooking there was

632 00:30:52,559 –> 00:30:55,240 frozen. Did you have electricity?

633 00:30:55,240 –> 00:30:58,799 We had electricity, only one bulb.

634 00:30:58,799 –> 00:31:01,760 Did you have other relatives?

635 00:31:01,760 –> 00:31:04,840 Oh yes, I have, yes I have my

636 00:31:04,840 –> 00:31:10,000 cousin, he was a second cousin, lived

637 00:31:10,000 –> 00:31:16,600 across the street. And we had to start to work.

638 00:31:16,600 –> 00:31:22,360 I start to work and know the machines trade, I had

639 00:31:22,360 –> 00:31:24,679 to go to school, we went a little to give

640 00:31:24,679 –> 00:31:26,639 us a little schooling and a little

641 00:31:26,639 –> 00:31:28,639 working in the beginning

642 00:31:28,639 –> 00:31:31,960 because we had to work to get

643 00:31:31,960 –> 00:31:34,480 support and get food – we had to

644 00:31:34,480 –> 00:31:35,480 work for the Germans.

645 00:31:35,480 –> 00:31:38,240 My mother used to start working

646 00:31:38,240 –> 00:31:41,320 making those big from straw shoes from

647 00:31:41,320 –> 00:31:43,360 the Germans in Russia

648 00:31:43,360 –> 00:31:45,000 standing guard, they used to have on the

649 00:31:45,000 –> 00:31:46,159 shoes the straw.

650 00:31:46,159 –> 00:31:50,440 My sister worked as secretary

651 00:31:50,440 –> 00:31:53,320 in the tailor department who used to make

652 00:31:53,320 –> 00:31:55,720 clothes for the German uniforms. In the

653 00:31:55,720 –> 00:31:58,120 ghetto, they said you can come in naked

654 00:31:58,120 –> 00:32:00,880 and come out dressed from head,

655 00:32:00,880 –> 00:32:04,279 everything, head – the hat and shoes and

656 00:32:04,279 –> 00:32:06,000 everything was done over there

657 00:32:06,000 –> 00:32:09,279 there was everything – used to be 100,000 Jews

658 00:32:09,279 –> 00:32:12,760 in the ghetto when I went. When the ghetto

659 00:32:12,760 –> 00:32:15,679 was liquidated, there was only 20,000 left

660 00:32:15,679 –> 00:32:17,880 people who were actually in Łódź. There

661 00:32:17,880 –> 00:32:21,279 was 80,000 in September 1944, but the

662 00:32:21,279 –> 00:32:24,120 other thousands came from Germany, from

663 00:32:24,120 –> 00:32:26,200 Czechoslovakia, from other small towns, they

664 00:32:26,200 –> 00:32:28,679 used to bring in. But in the four years

665 00:32:28,679 –> 00:32:32,679 actually 80,000 Jews, originally from Łódź

666 00:32:32,679 –> 00:32:35,360 Jews, died from starvation, from

667 00:32:35,360 –> 00:32:38,720 hunger, from when they took them out

668 00:32:38,720 –> 00:32:42,479 for selection, took him out to death

669 00:32:42,480 –> 00:32:45,159 or send him to work another place.

670 00:32:45,159 –> 00:32:49,240 And in the beginning,

671 00:32:49,240 –> 00:32:51,679 like every good Jewish family we had

672 00:32:51,679 –> 00:32:54,159 little gold pieces, Russian gold

673 00:32:54,159 –> 00:32:57,159 pieces, and safe over the bad

674 00:32:57,159 –> 00:33:00,480 times and then we had a Polish

675 00:33:00,480 –> 00:33:05,639 family what before the war the man, the

676 00:33:05,639 –> 00:33:08,120 woman, used to make a wash for us.

677 00:33:08,120 –> 00:33:10,080 At that time you didn’t send it out to wash

678 00:33:10,080 –> 00:33:14,320 like Chinese laundry. You had to upstairs on

679 00:33:14,320 –> 00:33:16,639 top, you have this big tub, and used

680 00:33:16,639 –> 00:33:19,679 to come a woman every month, every three

681 00:33:19,679 –> 00:33:21,279 months, I don’t know and she used to wash

682 00:33:21,279 –> 00:33:23,600 the wash and you have this partition

683 00:33:23,600 –> 00:33:25,120 over there where you hang it to dry it

684 00:33:25,120 –> 00:33:28,080 out. And the same thing was –

685 00:33:28,080 –> 00:33:31,080 for heating we used to use coal, and

686 00:33:31,080 –> 00:33:33,279 the coal was – there used to come a truck and put

687 00:33:33,279 –> 00:33:35,440 the chute down into the cellar, but the

688 00:33:35,440 –> 00:33:38,000 coal has to be brought up the four floors

689 00:33:38,000 –> 00:33:42,279 to a special – like a “komora” they used to call it

690 00:33:42,279 –> 00:33:45,440 like a room where you hold your

691 00:33:45,440 –> 00:33:48,200 provisions – apples and coals –

692 00:33:48,200 –> 00:33:49,840 and her husband used to bring the

693 00:33:49,840 –> 00:33:52,799 coals up and also before

694 00:33:52,799 –> 00:33:55,480 Passover, we used to take all the

695 00:33:55,480 –> 00:33:57,919 carpets downstairs and

696 00:33:57,919 –> 00:33:59,799 beat them up, dust them out

697 00:33:59,799 –> 00:34:01,840 it’d be like work for us

698 00:34:01,840 –> 00:34:05,279 from time to time – and those people,

699 00:34:05,279 –> 00:34:08,399 I was a kid – in the Jewish cemetery over there –

700 00:34:08,399 –> 00:34:11,639 even though it was a ghetto, there was no guard over there

701 00:34:11,639 –> 00:34:13,399 and you could could sneak out to

702 00:34:13,399 –> 00:34:15,679 the Polish side – and we had –

703 00:34:15,679 –> 00:34:18,959 make up with him, and we gave him the gold

704 00:34:18,960 –> 00:34:20,679 and they gave us a little food.

705 00:34:20,679 –> 00:34:23,719 The first two years, we managed

706 00:34:23,719 –> 00:34:25,760 a little better than the average Jew.

707 00:34:25,760 –> 00:34:29,199 Because rations were very – you get

708 00:34:29,199 –> 00:34:36,240 a bread, a kilo – actually, you got 100 grams of bread a day.

709 00:34:37,839 –> 00:34:41,879 And a little brown sugar, little

710 00:34:41,879 –> 00:34:44,560 oil. The only thing, for some reason, you

711 00:34:44,560 –> 00:34:48,239 had – I don’t know why – was they called it a

712 00:34:48,239 –> 00:34:52,000 “zast coffee” – this was actually some kind

713 00:34:52,000 –> 00:34:54,480 of wheat that was burned and was

714 00:34:54,480 –> 00:34:56,839 roasted, and you cook it with water

715 00:34:56,839 –> 00:34:58,640 and you had some brown coffee. I don’t know –

716 00:34:58,640 –> 00:35:02,280 this was in supply – it was

717 00:35:02,280 –> 00:35:04,920 in any amount you wanted, you can buy it.

718 00:35:04,920 –> 00:35:07,960 If you didn’t have enough sugar,

719 00:35:07,960 –> 00:35:11,359 you had saccharine …

720 00:35:11,520 –> 00:35:16,839 In the ghetto, the famous supplement,

721 00:35:16,839 –> 00:35:18,599 if you were lucky, we had some

722 00:35:18,599 –> 00:35:19,960 connections with the kitchen, you had

723 00:35:19,960 –> 00:35:21,040 soup kitchens over there, like in the

724 00:35:21,041 –> 00:35:24,320 … in the factory where I worked,

725 00:35:24,320 –> 00:35:28,359 you get a soup – lunchtime

726 00:35:28,359 –> 00:35:30,040 But interesting – the soup was only a

727 00:35:30,040 –> 00:35:32,280 little water and four pieces of

728 00:35:32,280 –> 00:35:35,280 potatoes – and you always used to

729 00:35:35,280 –> 00:35:36,640 be amazed

730 00:35:36,640 –> 00:35:39,880 like, she picked up the shovel –

731 00:35:39,880 –> 00:35:41,760 it was a liter – she picked up

732 00:35:41,760 –> 00:35:43,440 and you said “oh so many potatoes I’m

733 00:35:43,440 –> 00:35:46,400 lucky!” She put it in – everybody got those four,

734 00:35:46,400 –> 00:35:48,880 three pieces – and she was an expert, the

735 00:35:48,880 –> 00:35:52,359 woman, she gave – how she did it?

736 00:35:52,359 –> 00:35:55,760 But the other supplement was, if we

737 00:35:55,760 –> 00:35:57,160 were lucky, you had somebody in the

738 00:35:57,160 –> 00:35:59,920 kitchen, they give you the potato peels

739 00:35:59,920 –> 00:36:01,720 and the potato peels were so thin – the

740 00:36:01,720 –> 00:36:03,359 people who peeled the potatoes were like an

741 00:36:03,359 –> 00:36:05,400 artist – you wouldn’t believe – but even you

742 00:36:05,400 –> 00:36:07,400 get a kilo or two of the potato peels,

743 00:36:07,400 –> 00:36:09,240 you put it through the grinding machine

744 00:36:09,240 –> 00:36:12,960 and you took the coffee,

745 00:36:12,960 –> 00:36:15,480 the wheat, the coffee, whatever you had, you

746 00:36:15,480 –> 00:36:17,960 cooked it, and you throw the water out

747 00:36:17,960 –> 00:36:20,160 because it was bitter and you took with

748 00:36:20,160 –> 00:36:22,599 the potato peels – you mixed together – you

749 00:36:22,599 –> 00:36:25,440 put a little oil, a little saccharine in it

750 00:36:25,440 –> 00:36:28,079 and you put a little

751 00:36:28,079 –> 00:36:32,040 flour, whatever you have, and you cooked it all

752 00:36:32,040 –> 00:36:34,040 night in another pot and in the

753 00:36:34,040 –> 00:36:37,400 morning, when it was cooled off, it was like a cake.

754 00:36:37,400 –> 00:36:40,640 That’s what you took as a supplement.

755 00:36:40,640 –> 00:36:43,839 Did it have any taste to it?

756 00:36:43,839 –> 00:36:46,400 Can’t imagine – no talk about taste.

757 00:36:46,400 –> 00:36:50,400 The ration was – then me and my mother –

758 00:36:50,400 –> 00:36:56,040 in 1943 especially – all the people –

759 00:36:56,040 –> 00:36:58,400 they got all …

760 00:36:58,400 –> 00:37:01,400 And they had some from the

761 00:37:01,400 –> 00:37:03,720 black market over there – they had some –

762 00:37:03,720 –> 00:37:06,480 they called it Vigantol, some kind of fish oil, I don’t

763 00:37:06,480 –> 00:37:08,359 know – it was very expensive to get …

764 00:37:13,880 –> 00:37:16,040 You have to have a little

765 00:37:16,040 –> 00:37:17,200 connection – if you have a little

766 00:37:17,200 –> 00:37:19,960 connection, like I had, somebody

767 00:37:19,960 –> 00:37:23,640 who works – he was a policeman in a

768 00:37:23,640 –> 00:37:25,560 bakery – you have special

769 00:37:25,560 –> 00:37:28,000 police – Sonderpolizei – who used to keep on

770 00:37:28,000 –> 00:37:32,160 the bakeries over there – not to steal – and

771 00:37:32,160 –> 00:37:34,040 they had a little garden and I used to

772 00:37:34,040 –> 00:37:36,359 go in the garden over there and help him.

773 00:37:36,359 –> 00:37:38,800 They give me some pieces of bread

774 00:37:38,800 –> 00:37:42,040 before I went to work.

775 00:37:42,040 –> 00:37:44,160 You have to have connection – after you used

776 00:37:44,160 –> 00:37:46,319 to get vegetables, sometimes you

777 00:37:46,319 –> 00:37:48,440 used to have potatoes or radish, but

778 00:37:48,440 –> 00:37:50,000 everything was frozen for some reason.

779 00:37:50,000 –> 00:37:51,500 Whatever was frozen – not good –

780 00:37:51,501 –> 00:37:52,990 they sent to the Jews in the ghetto.

781 00:37:53,000 –> 00:37:54,200 Was there anybody there

782 00:37:54,200 –> 00:37:56,200 who knew your father, who was able maybe

783 00:37:56,200 –> 00:37:58,720 to help you or anything like that?

784 00:37:58,720 –> 00:38:01,640 What do you mean my father?

785 00:38:01,640 –> 00:38:03,760 Who knew him when he was a druggist?

786 00:38:03,760 –> 00:38:06,359 Yes, that’s what I’m telling you –

787 00:38:06,359 –> 00:38:08,160 We had some customers,

788 00:38:08,160 –> 00:38:10,520 they were prominent before the war,

789 00:38:10,520 –> 00:38:12,839 they were also prominent in the ghetto.

790 00:38:12,839 –> 00:38:15,440 Because the people of

791 00:38:15,440 –> 00:38:18,599 cultivated, educated people.

792 00:38:18,599 –> 00:38:21,160 I remember one was named Sztewi – he helped my

793 00:38:21,160 –> 00:38:25,440 mother to get the work.

794 00:38:25,520 –> 00:38:28,880 The only thing – what you had to do

795 00:38:28,880 –> 00:38:32,119 was they pulled out all the bricks and

796 00:38:32,119 –> 00:38:33,839 you started your own garden, like in

797 00:38:33,839 –> 00:38:36,000 England, the Victory Gardens – you

798 00:38:36,000 –> 00:38:38,800 grow on your own vegetables.

799 00:38:38,800 –> 00:38:43,599 You grow anything, like radish, you had

800 00:38:43,599 –> 00:38:46,920 the radish has a big leaf – you eat

801 00:38:46,920 –> 00:38:48,880 the leaf too. You put it in water, you

802 00:38:48,880 –> 00:38:51,240 take the bitterness out, and you make

803 00:38:51,240 –> 00:38:53,480 like spinach – you wouldn’t believe.

804 00:38:53,480 –> 00:38:57,560 Coal – I remember I worked

805 00:38:57,560 –> 00:38:59,520 at that time, but I worked like a night

806 00:38:59,520 –> 00:39:02,480 shift, or second shift, we had over there

807 00:39:02,480 –> 00:39:03,880 before the war they used to take from

808 00:39:03,880 –> 00:39:06,119 the factories, it used to be fired – the ovens –

809 00:39:06,119 –> 00:39:08,040 used to be fired by coal. They used to collect all

810 00:39:08,040 –> 00:39:11,079 the residue and throw it over in the fields.

811 00:39:11,079 –> 00:39:12,880 It was in the ghetto – we used to go

812 00:39:12,880 –> 00:39:15,640 as kids over there and and dig and find

813 00:39:15,640 –> 00:39:18,839 pieces of coal and burn it.

814 00:39:18,839 –> 00:39:22,960 The ingenuity – it’s impossible to even imagine.

815 00:39:22,960 –> 00:39:26,160 You had to. You had to. But same thing, the

816 00:39:26,160 –> 00:39:28,959 big eaters, they starved – they died first.

817 00:39:28,960 –> 00:39:30,560 The strong, the big,

818 00:39:30,560 –> 00:39:32,920 the people – I was always – my

819 00:39:32,920 –> 00:39:34,839 mother always complained how such a bad

820 00:39:34,839 –> 00:39:37,040 eater I was – and I went for three

821 00:39:37,040 –> 00:39:39,880 months vacation – I gained 100 grams.

822 00:39:39,880 –> 00:39:43,680 I was always a skinny kid but I

823 00:39:43,680 –> 00:39:47,799 remember they said that the strong people

824 00:39:47,800 –> 00:39:51,560 in the Jewish population all died first because

825 00:39:51,560 –> 00:39:54,399 they just starved to death – there was no food.

826 00:39:54,400 –> 00:39:58,599 They gave me from time to time …

827 00:40:00,760 –> 00:40:03,560 How did your mother do?

828 00:40:03,560 –> 00:40:07,640 My mother – I told you – she worked and

829 00:40:07,640 –> 00:40:11,160 we came home – and we divide the

830 00:40:11,160 –> 00:40:15,000 food – and make sure that at the end of

831 00:40:15,000 –> 00:40:19,680 the week, the bread was gone.

832 00:40:19,960 –> 00:40:22,760 What can I tell you?

833 00:40:22,760 –> 00:40:27,640 We had a big mischief because they had

834 00:40:27,640 –> 00:40:30,990 the names of all the middle class and wealthy Jews –

835 00:40:30,991 –> 00:40:35,039 there was a Kripo – a Kriminalpolizei – in Łódź

836 00:40:35,040 –> 00:40:38,440 and the main honcho, his name was Suder.

837 00:40:38,440 –> 00:40:41,599 And he grew with Jews together –

838 00:40:41,599 –> 00:40:43,599 he spoke with Jews like a Jew – you wouldn’t

839 00:40:43,599 –> 00:40:45,240 even believe – he used to go in the ghetto

840 00:40:45,240 –> 00:40:49,760 and ask them in Jewish, the people,

841 00:40:49,760 –> 00:40:53,800 “When is Hitler going be dead?”

842 00:40:53,801 –> 00:40:56,960 “When do you think those goddamn Germans are going to lose the war?”

843 00:40:56,960 –> 00:40:58,680 Some people didn’t know, it might get

844 00:40:58,680 –> 00:41:02,160 them involved, they arrest them.

845 00:41:02,160 –> 00:41:05,440 And they arrested my mother too.

846 00:41:05,440 –> 00:41:08,119 And she said she was over there for

847 00:41:08,119 –> 00:41:10,800 three weeks, she came back a broken woman

848 00:41:10,800 –> 00:41:13,400 completely. Not only mentally, but

849 00:41:13,400 –> 00:41:15,319 physically, you wouldn’t recognize her. She lost

850 00:41:15,319 –> 00:41:18,160 a tremendous amount of weight – besides

851 00:41:18,160 –> 00:41:21,319 what she already was – and she said

852 00:41:21,319 –> 00:41:23,640 he came to her and he had a

853 00:41:23,640 –> 00:41:26,319 …

854 00:41:26,319 –> 00:41:28,060 Yes, and slapped her and beat her up, and said

855 00:41:28,061 –> 00:41:30,059 where do you have the “harter” and the “vaykhe”

856 00:41:30,060 –> 00:41:36,079 “Harter” was hard dollars, coin dollars, “vaykhe” is paper money.

857 00:41:36,079 –> 00:41:38,040 He knows all the Jewish expressions.

858 00:41:38,040 –> 00:41:40,760 “I know you have” and my mother

859 00:41:40,760 –> 00:41:41,839 said “I have nothing”.

860 00:41:41,839 –> 00:41:45,319 They came to my house, to our

861 00:41:45,319 –> 00:41:48,280 house, and they took my –

862 00:41:48,280 –> 00:41:50,920 called my sister out from where she

863 00:41:50,920 –> 00:41:52,520 was and and they looked the house and

864 00:41:52,520 –> 00:41:55,760 we had a scale home from brass –

865 00:41:55,760 –> 00:41:58,160 they took this – and and they found a golden

866 00:41:58,160 –> 00:42:00,800 ring, but it was missing – my sister had a ring

867 00:42:00,800 –> 00:42:03,079 with a ruby in it – and they found

868 00:42:03,079 –> 00:42:04,880 the ruby was misplaced some place and

869 00:42:04,880 –> 00:42:08,200 she didn’t know. And he said “where is

870 00:42:08,200 –> 00:42:10,920 the diamond?” – my mother says “no diamond, it was

871 00:42:10,920 –> 00:42:14,880 a cheap ruby” – luckily, they found it – otherwise

872 00:42:14,880 –> 00:42:18,440 you never know. But this was very, very and she

873 00:42:18,440 –> 00:42:20,800 never really recuperated after that. She was

874 00:42:20,800 –> 00:42:22,760 a long time, she couldn’t go to work, she

875 00:42:22,760 –> 00:42:27,920 had to stay in bed, and she became very bad.

876 00:42:27,920 –> 00:42:32,760 And then in 1942, there was a big “Gehsperre” they called it

877 00:42:32,760 –> 00:42:36,400 there was a big – they took the people, they

878 00:42:36,400 –> 00:42:39,920 closed up each part of the

879 00:42:39,920 –> 00:42:43,440 town, and they selected the people –

880 00:42:43,440 –> 00:42:47,720 who has to live and who has to go.

881 00:42:47,720 –> 00:42:51,480 I had an aunt and my uncle he

882 00:42:51,480 –> 00:42:54,680 was sent out before, years before, he was

883 00:42:54,680 –> 00:42:57,880 sent out for work, another camp,

884 00:42:57,880 –> 00:42:59,680 he never came back, but she stayed

885 00:42:59,680 –> 00:43:04,520 with a small child and the version, the rumor was –

886 00:43:04,520 –> 00:43:09,520 and I went over there to bring it over to us

887 00:43:09,520 –> 00:43:12,559 and she saw the Germans coming, she just

888 00:43:12,559 –> 00:43:15,880 jumped from – with the child – from

889 00:43:15,880 –> 00:43:18,240 I don’t know how many stories and

890 00:43:18,240 –> 00:43:20,079 she killed herself.

891 00:43:20,079 –> 00:43:23,480 They came to us too and my

892 00:43:23,480 –> 00:43:27,480 mother, my sister amazingly looked very

893 00:43:27,480 –> 00:43:29,599 well – she was a young girl, 18,

894 00:43:29,599 –> 00:43:32,280 19, 20 – she kept herself very

895 00:43:32,280 –> 00:43:34,240 good, even with that little food, what she had.

896 00:43:34,240 –> 00:43:37,160 And I and my sister we pass and my

897 00:43:37,160 –> 00:43:40,599 mother was arrested and she was – should

898 00:43:40,599 –> 00:43:45,280 be sent out. But I tell you the mensch, Sztewi, was

899 00:43:45,280 –> 00:43:49,040 our customer and a friend of ours.

900 00:43:49,040 –> 00:43:50,440 When you had somebody there,

901 00:43:50,440 –> 00:43:53,400 in the Polish, not German,

902 00:43:53,400 –> 00:43:57,839 but in the Polish, Jewish police, they had a

903 00:43:57,839 –> 00:43:59,400 place where they held the people

904 00:43:59,400 –> 00:44:02,559 and he came and for some reason they released my

905 00:44:02,559 –> 00:44:04,119 mother back – and she survived.

906 00:44:04,119 –> 00:44:06,240 That was a very bad time

907 00:44:06,240 –> 00:44:08,699 because we didn’t get nothing – no food,

908 00:44:08,700 –> 00:44:11,640 we shouldn’t even go out in the street.

909 00:44:11,640 –> 00:44:14,200 But what I had over there, the place

910 00:44:14,200 –> 00:44:16,960 where I lived, in Łódź, was the

911 00:44:16,960 –> 00:44:20,520 outskirts of the city and we have over

912 00:44:20,520 –> 00:44:23,720 there the ghetto administration, used to raise

913 00:44:23,720 –> 00:44:28,960 over there vegetables, potatoes, carrots.

914 00:44:28,960 –> 00:44:31,540 And I was standing in the window

915 00:44:31,541 –> 00:44:36,119 and people are taking from the fields and I

916 00:44:36,119 –> 00:44:40,640 went also, and I brought a little food in

917 00:44:40,640 –> 00:44:44,440 But this was the end – my mother,

918 00:44:44,440 –> 00:44:47,400 she was released and they came to

919 00:44:47,400 –> 00:44:49,800 our thing and we had everything prepared

920 00:44:49,800 –> 00:44:52,359 and we waited downstairs, we went in

921 00:44:52,359 –> 00:44:54,319 hiding over there in the fields.

922 00:44:54,319 –> 00:44:59,079 And we hope maybe we survive,

923 00:44:59,079 –> 00:45:02,200 we stay, but we were not arrested even by –

924 00:45:02,200 –> 00:45:05,720 we were arrested by the German gendarmerie,

925 00:45:05,720 –> 00:45:08,640 military personnel, took care

926 00:45:08,640 –> 00:45:11,800 besides the SS, and they took us out and

927 00:45:11,800 –> 00:45:14,480 he says – we’re asking “can we, go home?”

928 00:45:14,480 –> 00:45:17,880 And take our things, go home and we

929 00:45:17,880 –> 00:45:21,160 take our rucksack, the backpack

930 00:45:21,160 –> 00:45:22,520 and that’s it.

931 00:45:22,520 –> 00:45:26,539 We came, he said like Biebow before –

932 00:45:26,540 –> 00:45:30,199 you’re going to be – don’t worry

933 00:45:30,200 –> 00:45:32,400 the Russians were only –

934 00:45:32,400 –> 00:45:35,760 in September, I told you, in August

935 00:45:35,760 –> 00:45:38,400 1944, when the Russian used to stand 100

936 00:45:38,400 –> 00:45:40,839 kilometers from the Vistula and they stopped

937 00:45:40,839 –> 00:45:42,920 the offensive and he says “the Russians

938 00:45:42,920 –> 00:45:45,119 are going to kill you – you’ll work for

939 00:45:45,119 –> 00:45:47,079 the German government – and now we’re

940 00:45:47,079 –> 00:45:48,839 going to bring you back to Germany” he says

941 00:45:48,839 –> 00:45:50,960 “nothing is going to happen, we want to

942 00:45:50,960 –> 00:45:54,040 protect your life – take big pots” he says

943 00:45:54,040 –> 00:45:56,599 and “take only what you need” but

944 00:45:56,599 –> 00:45:58,839 “take big pots and we’ll go over there, we

945 00:45:58,839 –> 00:46:00,920 have plenty of food, now the good times

946 00:46:00,920 –> 00:46:03,520 are here” and that’s what he believes – he

947 00:46:03,520 –> 00:46:05,400 took us to the station, he gave us only

948 00:46:05,400 –> 00:46:08,880 a loaf bread and a little sugar

949 00:46:08,880 –> 00:46:10,760 and, like I told you, they give for some

950 00:46:10,760 –> 00:46:14,599 reason everybody a head of cabbage.

951 00:46:14,599 –> 00:46:17,119 People were so hungry,

952 00:46:17,119 –> 00:46:18,520 they ate everything, but they save like –

953 00:46:18,520 –> 00:46:20,079 hungry people always save the

954 00:46:20,079 –> 00:46:23,119 bread and eat the cabbage and

955 00:46:23,119 –> 00:46:25,559 they took us – 50, 40 people

956 00:46:25,559 –> 00:46:28,480 in those cattle, they called it

957 00:46:28,480 –> 00:46:31,280 the cattle train – closed, only the small windows

958 00:46:31,280 –> 00:46:35,519 with one pile over there – it was unbearable

959 00:46:35,520 –> 00:46:36,680 what was going on

960 00:46:36,680 –> 00:46:41,200 people, so stomach, used to throw out,

961 00:46:41,200 –> 00:46:43,920 so they grab the food, they try to eat,

962 00:46:43,920 –> 00:46:45,240 and everything.

963 00:46:45,240 –> 00:46:48,760 We lined up one day we came

964 00:46:48,760 –> 00:46:51,640 instead of jamming, and the good life,

965 00:46:51,640 –> 00:46:55,559 and the big pots, we wind up in Auschwitz-Birkenau.

966 00:46:55,559 –> 00:46:58,479 How long did you travel from Łódź to Auschwitz?

967 00:46:58,480 –> 00:47:00,960 I don’t know, maybe two, three days

968 00:47:00,960 –> 00:47:03,880 In total darkness with just that

969 00:47:03,880 –> 00:47:06,480 little bit of light? Yeah, from the small

970 00:47:06,480 –> 00:47:10,000 window and we had the light.

971 00:47:10,680 –> 00:47:15,440 Yeah. And that’s it, in Auschwitz,

972 00:47:15,440 –> 00:47:18,079 I came to Birkenau.

973 00:47:20,599 –> 00:47:23,680 There were many “Häftling” it was called,

974 00:47:23,680 –> 00:47:26,160 prisoners, they took us out and

975 00:47:26,160 –> 00:47:27,839 the SS was standing there – it was the middle of the night

976 00:47:27,839 –> 00:47:33,280 big lights, projectors, and German dogs – the SS

977 00:47:33,280 –> 00:47:37,119 with the machine guns and everything – and the

978 00:47:37,119 –> 00:47:41,520 prisoners, they call them “Kanada”, used to call those prisoners.

979 00:47:41,520 –> 00:47:44,319 They had the better prison, better treatment

980 00:47:44,319 –> 00:47:46,040 they should take from the people,

981 00:47:46,040 –> 00:47:47,680 income people, throw all the

982 00:47:47,680 –> 00:47:50,880 people’s thing’s out and everything – and they

983 00:47:50,880 –> 00:47:54,040 separated myself from my mother

984 00:47:54,040 –> 00:47:57,920 and my sister. Men here, women here.

985 00:47:57,920 –> 00:48:00,000 Auschwitz over there, in Birkenau there

986 00:48:00,000 –> 00:48:02,839 used to be the Polish cavalry used to

987 00:48:02,839 –> 00:48:04,960 hold the horses, used to be long barracks

988 00:48:04,960 –> 00:48:06,359 in the middle of the barrack used to be

989 00:48:06,359 –> 00:48:08,760 like from cement

990 00:48:08,760 –> 00:48:10,920 with hooks, where they tie the horses

991 00:48:10,920 –> 00:48:13,920 put the … over there. And they brought

992 00:48:13,920 –> 00:48:16,319 all of us – this was the last time I

993 00:48:16,319 –> 00:48:19,119 saw my parent – my mother and my sister.

994 00:48:19,119 –> 00:48:21,400 And they brought us in.

995 00:48:21,400 –> 00:48:25,319 And the SS used to go around –

996 00:48:25,319 –> 00:48:27,200 everything give up – you have gold, you have

997 00:48:27,200 –> 00:48:30,000 watches, you have fountain pens,

998 00:48:30,000 –> 00:48:33,960 everything give them away. I didn’t have nothing.

999 00:48:33,961 –> 00:48:39,000 I just have nothing to give. I was a kid. I was,

1000 00:48:39,000 –> 00:48:42,800 at that time, I was 16 years old, 17

1001 00:48:42,800 –> 00:48:45,160 years old. I looked like 14. I always looked

1002 00:48:45,160 –> 00:48:47,760 younger than I was actually, my age.

1003 00:48:47,760 –> 00:48:50,079 I was skinny – I could go

1004 00:48:50,079 –> 00:48:52,079 through the hole of a needle

1005 00:48:52,079 –> 00:48:55,799 through – the four years of ghetto.

1006 00:48:55,799 –> 00:48:57,480 I can say one thing.

1007 00:48:57,480 –> 00:49:00,059 I was never sick one day in the ghetto.

1008 00:49:00,060 –> 00:49:03,480 People die from typhus, dysentery, these things you can’t even

1009 00:49:03,480 –> 00:49:07,200 believe. I was never sick. Not even a cold.

1010 00:49:07,200 –> 00:49:09,799 Nobody in our family, actually, was sick.

1011 00:49:11,040 –> 00:49:14,559 That maybe helped us because

1012 00:49:14,559 –> 00:49:16,920 if you were sick and you were

1013 00:49:16,920 –> 00:49:18,960 deteriorated it was always a …

1014 00:49:18,960 –> 00:49:20,920 You couldn’t survive. People just died in

1015 00:49:20,920 –> 00:49:22,799 the street. You walked over in the

1016 00:49:22,799 –> 00:49:28,000 street in the ghetto and just picked them up.

1017 00:49:28,200 –> 00:49:30,799 We came over there and after they took

1018 00:49:30,799 –> 00:49:32,960 some prisoners and started to beat them up.

1019 00:49:32,960 –> 00:49:35,200 “Oh, he hid a diamond in his rectum”

1020 00:49:35,200 –> 00:49:39,520 “We know you have diamonds in your rectum”

1021 00:49:39,520 –> 00:49:42,839 They used to just pick up people and beat them up.

1022 00:49:42,839 –> 00:49:46,958 After, they put us three days on “Appell”

1023 00:49:46,959 –> 00:49:48,359 I don’t know how many,

1024 00:49:48,359 –> 00:49:50,119 a thousand, was over there.

1025 00:49:50,119 –> 00:49:53,879 We stood for three days. We didn’t get any food, nothing.

1026 00:49:53,880 –> 00:49:56,720 Everybody who fell down – that’s it.

1027 00:49:56,720 –> 00:50:00,359 You weren’t allowed even to help him.

1028 00:50:00,440 –> 00:50:04,440 That’s it. They counted us. They count,

1029 00:50:04,440 –> 00:50:06,799 and count, and count, and for some reason

1030 00:50:06,799 –> 00:50:09,119 if two are missing, they count again,

1031 00:50:09,119 –> 00:50:11,040 they count again, they count again. It was

1032 00:50:11,040 –> 00:50:13,240 day and night, and day and night – I was

1033 00:50:13,240 –> 00:50:14,960 standing over there and they count and

1034 00:50:14,960 –> 00:50:17,640 that was September. September in Poland,

1035 00:50:17,640 –> 00:50:23,359 the beginning of September gets very cool.

1036 00:50:23,359 –> 00:50:29,359 After, they put us in Barrack #2, I remember.

1037 00:50:29,359 –> 00:50:32,520 They put all the people on the

1038 00:50:32,520 –> 00:50:35,559 right side. There was a stone floor.

1039 00:50:35,559 –> 00:50:39,000 Everybody on the right side – and they cover us with those big

1040 00:50:39,000 –> 00:50:46,520 like you cover horses – big, big blankets, not for people.

1041 00:50:46,520 –> 00:50:49,319 And can you imagine, in September,

1042 00:50:49,319 –> 00:50:57,040 you sleep on a wood floor and the wake up was 5:00

1043 00:50:57,040 –> 00:50:59,319 in the morning and everybody has to go

1044 00:50:59,319 –> 00:51:01,440 people couldn’t go to the bathroom

1045 00:51:01,440 –> 00:51:03,119 in the night you’re not allowed

1046 00:51:03,119 –> 00:51:05,440 to leave the barrack because they’d shoot you

1047 00:51:05,440 –> 00:51:07,559 imagine what was going on over there

1048 00:51:07,559 –> 00:51:10,160 they defecated, they urinated, everything

1049 00:51:10,160 –> 00:51:11,040 under themselves.

1050 00:51:11,040 –> 00:51:14,160 And in the morning, who could,

1051 00:51:14,160 –> 00:51:16,079 everybody was in a big barrack

1052 00:51:16,079 –> 00:51:20,799 with the men’s room over there.

1053 00:51:20,799 –> 00:51:23,960 Did you have thoughts at that time

1054 00:51:23,960 –> 00:51:26,319 that you were determined to survive?

1055 00:51:26,319 –> 00:51:28,200 Or didn’t you? That’s what I’ll tell you.

1056 00:51:28,200 –> 00:51:30,000 I was always determined to survive.

1057 00:51:30,000 –> 00:51:31,880 I was like a ghetto kid.

1058 00:51:31,880 –> 00:51:34,760 I was ghetto smart, street smart.

1059 00:51:34,760 –> 00:51:37,559 Four years you – I had a friend over there

1060 00:51:37,559 –> 00:51:39,640 a kid who I worked with, was sitting

1061 00:51:39,640 –> 00:51:43,280 over there. Now, what I’ll tell you, the next day

1062 00:51:43,280 –> 00:51:45,920 they gave us – and this is the psychology of the

1063 00:51:45,920 –> 00:51:49,720 Germans. They gave us food for the first time.

1064 00:51:49,720 –> 00:51:53,480 They brought big vats with hot soup,

1065 00:51:53,480 –> 00:51:56,799 big vat, and they took like a washing basin,

1066 00:51:56,799 –> 00:51:59,000 the small washing basin, one, two, three,

1067 00:51:59,000 –> 00:52:02,599 four people. No fork, no spoon, no nothing.

1068 00:52:02,599 –> 00:52:05,119 People didn’t eat for three days, they gave you

1069 00:52:05,119 –> 00:52:08,799 here – four people boom, boom, boom – eat.

1070 00:52:08,799 –> 00:52:14,200 Can you imagine – how can you eat hot soup without having

1071 00:52:14,200 –> 00:52:19,240 no spoon, no fork, and 400 people fighting over there.

1072 00:52:20,960 –> 00:52:23,680 I don’t know, if I look back,

1073 00:52:23,680 –> 00:52:25,799 how I survived, I don’t know. Only a will.

1074 00:52:25,799 –> 00:52:28,040 You had to have the will to survive. I’ll tell you about

1075 00:52:28,040 –> 00:52:29,520 the kid who was sitting next to me and

1076 00:52:29,520 –> 00:52:33,119 he says “Szalek,” my name in Polish was Szalek.

1077 00:52:33,119 –> 00:52:36,400 “We’re not going to survive it.”

1078 00:52:36,400 –> 00:52:37,920 You stop talking like that – you’re a

1079 00:52:37,920 –> 00:52:40,240 young kid, you’re only 17 years old.

1080 00:52:40,240 –> 00:52:42,559 You have old men here who want to live.

1081 00:52:42,559 –> 00:52:44,319 You have all your life, the war is

1082 00:52:44,319 –> 00:52:46,200 going to end, we’re going to survive,

1083 00:52:46,200 –> 00:52:48,119 you have to be strong.

1084 00:52:48,120 –> 00:52:50,640 The next day, I looked at him, he was

1085 00:52:50,640 –> 00:52:54,240 dead. Because the will was gone.

1086 00:52:54,240 –> 00:52:56,280 He said “I want to be dead, I want to die”

1087 00:52:56,280 –> 00:52:59,400 and he died without even somebody touching him.

1088 00:52:59,400 –> 00:53:01,880 But, like in any place, you have

1089 00:53:01,880 –> 00:53:05,119 to find a way. There was across

1090 00:53:05,119 –> 00:53:08,880 women, Russian women prisoners

1091 00:53:08,880 –> 00:53:11,400 over there and I saw there was a piece of

1092 00:53:11,400 –> 00:53:12,880 glass and I said to the

1093 00:53:12,880 –> 00:53:15,920 women – during the day in Auschwitz, in Birkenau,

1094 00:53:15,920 –> 00:53:18,359 you didn’t do nothing. That was like a

1095 00:53:18,359 –> 00:53:21,760 death camp. Over there in Birkenau

1096 00:53:21,760 –> 00:53:23,359 they sent you only to

1097 00:53:23,359 –> 00:53:25,440 the crematoriums or they sent you out to work.

1098 00:53:25,440 –> 00:53:26,960 But meantime we just sat over there

1099 00:53:26,960 –> 00:53:28,400 around, just doing nothing, just sitting

1100 00:53:28,400 –> 00:53:30,680 and waiting for the

1101 00:53:30,680 –> 00:53:32,799 piece of bread and a little soup or you

1102 00:53:32,799 –> 00:53:35,559 got a little coffee, watered, and she gave

1103 00:53:35,559 –> 00:53:37,720 me, I found a piece of wood,

1104 00:53:37,720 –> 00:53:41,200 and I was already a skilled machinist after four

1105 00:53:41,200 –> 00:53:44,000 years – I made from the wood and a

1106 00:53:44,000 –> 00:53:46,079 piece of glass, I made like a spoon

1107 00:53:46,079 –> 00:53:47,920 with a sharp point on the other side

1108 00:53:47,920 –> 00:53:49,960 that I can – if they give the four people

1109 00:53:49,960 –> 00:53:51,960 the piece of – I have something to

1110 00:53:51,960 –> 00:53:54,000 eat with. I can help myself.

1111 00:53:54,000 –> 00:53:57,720 And the other trick was to get at

1112 00:53:57,720 –> 00:54:00,839 2:00, they used to call “hey, four people,

1113 00:54:00,839 –> 00:54:04,040 eight people, 10 people, 12 people bread, bread”

1114 00:54:04,040 –> 00:54:06,920 Bring the bread from the

1115 00:54:06,920 –> 00:54:10,000 the baker over there, from the magazine.

1116 00:54:10,000 –> 00:54:12,119 We used to get each, four people, used to get

1117 00:54:12,119 –> 00:54:14,400 a blanket, and used to hold the

1118 00:54:14,400 –> 00:54:15,720 edge, and used to go over there and pick

1119 00:54:15,720 –> 00:54:18,079 up the bread. The bread was mostly –

1120 00:54:18,079 –> 00:54:22,240 they throw the bread, it used to fall apart.

1121 00:54:22,240 –> 00:54:24,720 What I used to do, and I used to

1122 00:54:24,720 –> 00:54:26,960 come to the block, everybody has the same

1123 00:54:26,960 –> 00:54:30,559 face – how can you see who – I used to grab a

1124 00:54:30,559 –> 00:54:33,359 piece and just run away.

1125 00:54:33,359 –> 00:54:35,440 Take my chance. You had to do something.

1126 00:54:35,440 –> 00:54:39,559 Even that kid, you had to do something.

1127 00:54:39,559 –> 00:54:41,599 Mr. Biezunski, we’re going to have to pause now and

1128 00:54:41,599 –> 00:54:43,000 we’ll take a break and then we’ll get

1129 00:54:43,000 –> 00:54:47,599 back to your story. Okay. Thank you.

1130 00:54:56,599 –> 00:54:59,720 Mr. Biezunski, we would like to go back to an

1131 00:54:59,720 –> 00:55:02,000 earlier part of your life when you were

1132 00:55:02,000 –> 00:55:04,040 involved in a strike in a metal

1133 00:55:04,040 –> 00:55:06,559 working factory in Łódź.

1134 00:55:06,559 –> 00:55:09,920 Yes, there was a time, where we worked

1135 00:55:09,920 –> 00:55:12,359 and there was some disapproval about the

1136 00:55:12,359 –> 00:55:16,000 second, the night shift, and most of the workers used

1137 00:55:16,000 –> 00:55:20,040 to be young boys like myself. And we

1138 00:55:20,040 –> 00:55:22,240 stood up with the fellows and we decide that

1139 00:55:22,240 –> 00:55:24,039 the other shift, they’re going to strike

1140 00:55:24,039 –> 00:55:26,079 and to support the other people

1141 00:55:26,079 –> 00:55:30,160 involved in the conflict.

1142 00:55:30,160 –> 00:55:33,039 Being young we didn’t really understand

1143 00:55:33,039 –> 00:55:34,400 the consequences, what a

1144 00:55:34,400 –> 00:55:36,640 strike means in the German occupation.

1145 00:55:36,640 –> 00:55:40,480 But the ghetto was run

1146 00:55:40,480 –> 00:55:44,319 by Jewish police and it was a Jewish

1147 00:55:44,440 –> 00:55:47,400 “Ältester”, like the head of the

1148 00:55:47,400 –> 00:55:51,039 community. His name was Chaim Rumkowski.

1149 00:55:51,039 –> 00:55:54,440 And actually police came and

1150 00:55:54,440 –> 00:55:57,599 arrested all of us and brought us

1151 00:55:57,599 –> 00:56:01,119 to the police station, and he came over there,

1152 00:56:01,119 –> 00:56:03,880 and talked to us, and explained

1153 00:56:03,880 –> 00:56:07,039 that we are lucky that the Germans, the Gestapo,

1154 00:56:07,039 –> 00:56:10,240 didn’t get wind of it because we

1155 00:56:10,240 –> 00:56:13,359 might be all shot and that was really true

1156 00:56:13,359 –> 00:56:16,760 And we decide to give it up

1157 00:56:16,760 –> 00:56:19,160 and go back to work and settle

1158 00:56:19,160 –> 00:56:23,640 the matter. But this was

1159 00:56:23,640 –> 00:56:26,920 really a moment where we were really –

1160 00:56:26,920 –> 00:56:29,640 if the Germans found out about it, there

1161 00:56:29,640 –> 00:56:31,240 was no question, they would’ve taken us out

1162 00:56:31,240 –> 00:56:34,599 over there to the square and shot or

1163 00:56:34,599 –> 00:56:38,000 hanged like they did with other people.

1164 00:56:38,000 –> 00:56:40,280 So this was the only time that

1165 00:56:40,280 –> 00:56:41,760 you were involved in any type of

1166 00:56:41,760 –> 00:56:44,319 resistance? Yeah. Is that true? There was

1167 00:56:44,319 –> 00:56:47,559 no resistance because, like I told you,

1168 00:56:47,559 –> 00:56:49,880 because there was no way to resist.

1169 00:56:49,880 –> 00:56:52,240 We didn’t have any weapons. We were

1170 00:56:52,240 –> 00:56:54,240 surrounded by a hostile Polish

1171 00:56:54,240 –> 00:56:56,240 population where they just

1172 00:56:56,240 –> 00:56:58,280 laughed at us through the – we had

1173 00:56:58,280 –> 00:57:01,480 like a – when I walked to work I walked along

1174 00:57:01,480 –> 00:57:03,839 the street and all the street there was

1175 00:57:03,839 –> 00:57:10,440 a fence with steel wires

1176 00:57:10,440 –> 00:57:13,480 a wooden fence, and each

1177 00:57:13,480 –> 00:57:16,839 few hundred meters you had a guard

1178 00:57:16,839 –> 00:57:20,200 the German … but the trolley used to go

1179 00:57:20,200 –> 00:57:22,760 over there and the Poles used to travel

1180 00:57:22,760 –> 00:57:27,640 through the trolley, through the ghetto,

1181 00:57:27,641 –> 00:57:31,000 they used to laugh at us, make a sign, and

1182 00:57:31,000 –> 00:57:32,720 show like that, and you cut your throat.

1183 00:57:32,720 –> 00:57:35,680 The Jew in Poland has

1184 00:57:35,680 –> 00:57:38,599 no protection at all. There wasn’t a

1185 00:57:38,599 –> 00:57:40,640 concentration camp – it was known that

1186 00:57:40,640 –> 00:57:45,119 if you escape you have no way to

1187 00:57:45,119 –> 00:57:47,119 survive only if you really have somebody

1188 00:57:47,119 –> 00:57:49,760 you know somebody who really wants

1189 00:57:49,760 –> 00:57:52,520 to help you out. If you don’t have

1190 00:57:52,520 –> 00:57:55,240 the means to pay him for it in gold or

1191 00:57:55,240 –> 00:57:57,200 diamonds, they’re not going to do it because

1192 00:57:57,200 –> 00:57:59,160 the Germans offered them for each Jewish head

1193 00:57:59,160 –> 00:58:02,520 a kilo of sugar and a bottle of vodka.

1194 00:58:02,520 –> 00:58:04,880 That was the price, the worth of a

1195 00:58:04,880 –> 00:58:09,280 Jewish life. That was after hundreds

1196 00:58:09,280 –> 00:58:11,440 of hundred of years which the Jews

1197 00:58:11,440 –> 00:58:14,079 gave to Poland and did for Poland and

1198 00:58:14,079 –> 00:58:17,640 fought for Poland. That’s how the Polish

1199 00:58:17,640 –> 00:58:21,359 population paid them back in a time of need.

1200 00:58:21,359 –> 00:58:23,240 They just deserted the Jews.

1201 00:58:23,240 –> 00:58:25,720 Not only they deserted the Jews,

1202 00:58:25,720 –> 00:58:27,520 they were happy to get rid of them

1203 00:58:27,520 –> 00:58:29,920 because they took their houses, they took

1204 00:58:29,920 –> 00:58:32,880 their goods, they took their businesses,

1205 00:58:32,880 –> 00:58:37,640 they took everything. And if you saw The Shoah,

1206 00:58:37,640 –> 00:58:43,119 you see over there that the Polish woman says “yes, I was

1207 00:58:43,119 –> 00:58:46,440 happy to get rid of them. Before I was a maid”, she

1208 00:58:46,440 –> 00:58:52,680 says, “I used to pick potatoes. Now, I’m a businessman.”

1209 00:58:52,680 –> 00:58:55,200 She spoke out fair and square.

1210 00:58:55,200 –> 00:58:59,200 Yeah, people were aware.

1211 00:58:59,200 –> 00:59:02,640 While you were in Auschwitz, did

1212 00:59:02,640 –> 00:59:06,559 you see anyone attempt to escape or did

1213 00:59:06,559 –> 00:59:10,000 you see anything, any resistance?

1214 00:59:10,000 –> 00:59:14,240 In Auschwitz, and I told you, we’ll

1215 00:59:14,240 –> 00:59:17,440 continue in Birkenau over there. And in Birkenau

1216 00:59:17,440 –> 00:59:19,680 we came to Birkenau, we stayed over there. The only

1217 00:59:19,680 –> 00:59:22,240 way out was through the crematoriums, what you can see,

1218 00:59:22,240 –> 00:59:23,839 you didn’t see it actually because it

1219 00:59:23,839 –> 00:59:26,720 was surrounded by a fence and the fence

1220 00:59:26,720 –> 00:59:29,280 was all made of blankets but

1221 00:59:29,280 –> 00:59:31,720 you see the chimney and

1222 00:59:31,720 –> 00:59:35,240 a smoke, dark smoke coming out and it was a

1223 00:59:35,240 –> 00:59:37,760 terrible stink, a smell was

1224 00:59:37,760 –> 00:59:40,960 terrific in there. And the … over there,

1225 00:59:40,960 –> 00:59:42,839 There was a road and they said the road is all

1226 00:59:42,839 –> 00:59:45,799 made of crushed bones or ashes

1227 00:59:45,799 –> 00:59:48,520 because they get rid of the –

1228 00:59:48,520 –> 00:59:52,119 There was no way out –

1229 00:59:52,119 –> 00:59:56,200 Birkenau was a “Zigeuner” camp, they called it

1230 00:59:56,200 –> 00:59:58,200 because that was a Gypsy camp, they

1231 00:59:58,200 –> 00:59:59,640 called it. Because the Gypsies, they brought

1232 00:59:59,640 –> 01:00:01,520 back the Gypsies and they exterminated

1233 01:00:01,520 –> 01:00:03,760 them over there. When I came

1234 01:00:03,760 –> 01:00:07,319 to Auschwitz, before us came

1235 01:00:07,319 –> 01:00:10,440 Jews from Hungary … they came

1236 01:00:10,440 –> 01:00:12,920 I don’t know how many, 100,000, 150,000

1237 01:00:12,920 –> 01:00:14,799 I don’t know how many they killed over there

1238 01:00:14,799 –> 01:00:18,998 in Auschwitz – Hungarian Jews – we came after that.

1239 01:00:18,999 –> 01:00:22,280 They had a number A and I have

1240 01:00:22,280 –> 01:00:23,520 a number B.

1241 01:00:23,520 –> 01:00:26,480 You see, the B transport,

1242 01:00:26,480 –> 01:00:29,880 and they have an A, in the beginning. Yeah.

1243 01:00:29,880 –> 01:00:32,359 My number was – when you were in the

1244 01:00:32,359 –> 01:00:33,720 concentration camp, they gave you all a number.

1245 01:00:33,721 –> 01:00:35,720 B6901.

1246 01:00:35,720 –> 01:00:38,919 This was your name, your birth, your everything.

1247 01:00:38,920 –> 01:00:40,240 You were not known as a person,

1248 01:00:40,240 –> 01:00:42,280 you were only a number.

1249 01:00:42,280 –> 01:00:45,440 Everything commuted to you was by

1250 01:00:45,440 –> 01:00:47,920 calling your number. They will not call you Mr.

1251 01:00:47,920 –> 01:00:53,359 Solomon Biezunski. B6901 – that’s what was your number.

1252 01:00:53,359 –> 01:00:56,559 And the only way to get out

1253 01:00:56,559 –> 01:00:59,680 was, if you’re lucky, you went to work or

1254 01:00:59,680 –> 01:01:02,880 you stayed over there, because this was

1255 01:01:02,880 –> 01:01:05,039 it was known at that time already, it was known after,

1256 01:01:05,039 –> 01:01:06,640 it was a death camp.

1257 01:01:06,640 –> 01:01:09,760 Every day, people used to come,

1258 01:01:09,760 –> 01:01:11,720 the SS used to come with some private

1259 01:01:11,720 –> 01:01:17,400 people and the whole block used to

1260 01:01:17,400 –> 01:01:22,640 disrobe and keep your hands up and

1261 01:01:22,640 –> 01:01:25,359 march by those Germans, march by,

1262 01:01:25,359 –> 01:01:26,480 completely naked.

1263 01:01:26,480 –> 01:01:29,280 And they used to look at it, how

1264 01:01:29,280 –> 01:01:33,200 you survived, the notion was when you had

1265 01:01:33,200 –> 01:01:37,079 on your cheeks here, some meat, you’re

1266 01:01:37,079 –> 01:01:39,400 workable, you can work a little more.

1267 01:01:39,400 –> 01:01:41,160 You can make it. If you had

1268 01:01:41,160 –> 01:01:43,760 no meat here, on your cheeks,

1269 01:01:43,760 –> 01:01:46,079 then you’re a “Muselmann”. I don’t know how

1270 01:01:46,079 –> 01:01:48,760 they named it, just know that a “Muselmann” was a

1271 01:01:48,760 –> 01:01:51,039 name for a man who has to be exterminated.

1272 01:01:51,039 –> 01:01:52,720 They would call it – in the beginning

1273 01:01:52,720 –> 01:01:55,359 they called “Muselmann”, I thought maybe

1274 01:01:55,359 –> 01:01:57,079 they meant Muslim.

1275 01:01:57,079 –> 01:01:59,559 But they said “No, no, no, don’t you

1276 01:01:59,559 –> 01:02:01,640 go, the Muselmann is someone who is going to be

1277 01:02:01,640 –> 01:02:05,720 exterminated.” Another way to call it. Maybe they

1278 01:02:05,720 –> 01:02:08,200 I don’t know – they meant like the

1279 01:02:08,200 –> 01:02:10,200 Bedouin, the very skinny –

1280 01:02:10,200 –> 01:02:11,520 Was this what was meant by The

1281 01:02:11,520 –> 01:02:13,599 Walking Dead when they spoke of The Walking Dead?

1282 01:02:13,599 –> 01:02:15,720 Yeah, Walking Dead was a Muselmann.

1283 01:02:15,720 –> 01:02:18,440 I don’t know where they got it – if it has any

1284 01:02:18,440 –> 01:02:21,880 connection to the Muslim religion or like the Bedouin,

1285 01:02:21,880 –> 01:02:24,319 the Muslims, the skinny desert people.

1286 01:02:24,319 –> 01:02:27,359 I don’t know, but this was the name.

1287 01:02:27,359 –> 01:02:30,480 And they looked at it and I came and they

1288 01:02:30,480 –> 01:02:32,520 said they’re looking for strong people

1289 01:02:32,520 –> 01:02:36,960 and craftsmen. And I, like everybody else,

1290 01:02:36,960 –> 01:02:39,799 I was not a big much of a person,

1291 01:02:39,799 –> 01:02:42,160 you can imagine of me, but I stood up

1292 01:02:42,160 –> 01:02:45,720 naked and there was an SS officer and

1293 01:02:45,720 –> 01:02:47,359 another few officers over there and

1294 01:02:47,359 –> 01:02:48,559 there was a civilian.

1295 01:02:48,559 –> 01:02:53,559 And the civilian asked in German

1296 01:02:53,559 –> 01:02:56,359 “what are you?” I said “I am a lathe hand.” but

1297 01:02:56,359 –> 01:02:59,200 the SS looked at me, my figure, and he says “No.”

1298 01:02:59,200 –> 01:03:03,279 But the civilian says, in German “No, we need him.”

1299 01:03:03,279 –> 01:03:07,960 And this was my ticket to life, actually.

1300 01:03:07,960 –> 01:03:12,160 Because they picked up 360 people

1301 01:03:12,160 –> 01:03:16,160 and put us on lorries and brought us

1302 01:03:16,160 –> 01:03:21,119 in the vicinity of Auschwitz to Furstengrube, it was a coal mine.

1303 01:03:21,119 –> 01:03:26,440 We came over there, it was maybe 3 in the afternoon.

1304 01:03:26,440 –> 01:03:28,839 And they disrupt us again, they put us in

1305 01:03:28,839 –> 01:03:31,640 a big open space, “Appellplatz” is what they called it.

1306 01:03:31,640 –> 01:03:34,279 The drill place, over there.

1307 01:03:34,279 –> 01:03:36,880 And can you imagine 360 people, naked,

1308 01:03:36,880 –> 01:03:39,039 standing around? They deprive you

1309 01:03:39,039 –> 01:03:41,559 of all your human rights, digging into

1310 01:03:41,559 –> 01:03:43,160 everything. You don’t even have –

1311 01:03:43,160 –> 01:03:45,298 I would say “where to put my hands?”

1312 01:03:45,299 –> 01:03:47,198 I’d put them in my pockets, but I –

1313 01:03:47,199 –> 01:03:49,398 I had, at that time, I had civilian clothes

1314 01:03:49,399 –> 01:03:50,680 what I got in Auschwitz,

1315 01:03:50,680 –> 01:03:53,200 they took my old clothes, and gave me a set

1316 01:03:53,200 –> 01:03:56,319 of clothes from a grown-up man, pants,

1317 01:03:56,319 –> 01:03:58,920 and a shirt, and a big jacket and it’s good I

1318 01:03:58,920 –> 01:04:00,758 had a belt, but they left me the shoes.

1319 01:04:00,759 –> 01:04:03,880 I had a belt and –

1320 01:04:03,880 –> 01:04:06,839 we came over there – now, yes,

1321 01:04:06,839 –> 01:04:09,359 before we came in Auschwitz, too, they

1322 01:04:09,359 –> 01:04:10,839 changed our clothes after we came out from

1323 01:04:10,839 –> 01:04:13,599 the train – change the clothes – they took us out

1324 01:04:13,599 –> 01:04:16,279 before went – the first day, they

1325 01:04:16,279 –> 01:04:20,039 shaved all your hair and they took Lysol

1326 01:04:20,039 –> 01:04:26,480 all on your – there and here and here – and all they

1327 01:04:26,480 –> 01:04:29,279 hair and they took Lysol and

1328 01:04:29,279 –> 01:04:31,640 they rubbed it in and this was burning

1329 01:04:31,640 –> 01:04:34,119 especially here, it was a terrible pain.

1330 01:04:34,119 –> 01:04:40,720 The first night, stinging in all all sensitive places.

1331 01:04:40,720 –> 01:04:43,240 We survived that too.

1332 01:04:43,240 –> 01:04:46,000 Now, we came over there, they disrobe you,

1333 01:04:46,000 –> 01:04:47,960 and you stand for two, three hours

1334 01:04:47,960 –> 01:04:49,680 and people are coming from the second

1335 01:04:49,680 –> 01:04:52,960 shift, they came back from work, like 5:00 they

1336 01:04:52,960 –> 01:04:56,200 … as they mixed with the naked people standing

1337 01:04:56,200 –> 01:04:58,440 It was 8:00 in the evening, yet already dark,

1338 01:04:58,440 –> 01:05:02,359 was already September in Poland, it’s very cold, can you imagine?

1339 01:05:02,359 –> 01:05:07,640 And they gave us those striped clothes and they gave us

1340 01:05:07,640 –> 01:05:11,799 wooden shoes and they left us only the belt

1341 01:05:11,799 –> 01:05:14,039 and they gave us different concentration …

1342 01:05:14,039 –> 01:05:18,200 And they gave us soup, the first good meal,

1343 01:05:18,200 –> 01:05:21,039 each one, and gave each one

1344 01:05:21,039 –> 01:05:27,039 a soap, and a nice piece of bread.

1345 01:05:27,680 –> 01:05:32,760 This was like paradise again after over there

1346 01:05:32,760 –> 01:05:34,720 two weeks, I was only two weeks

1347 01:05:34,720 –> 01:05:39,119 in Birkenau. I said “If I don’t go to work,

1348 01:05:39,119 –> 01:05:40,960 that’s it, you’re dead here.” And there was no way.

1349 01:05:40,960 –> 01:05:46,400 It was known that’s a “Deathlager”, death camp

1350 01:05:47,520 –> 01:05:51,960 Over there, in Furstengrube,

1351 01:05:51,960 –> 01:05:56,359 they put me in a block and

1352 01:05:56,359 –> 01:06:00,119 got you a bunk, to sleep on.

1353 01:06:00,119 –> 01:06:06,400 And they sent me to work in the mines.

1354 01:06:06,400 –> 01:06:10,319 I worked in – there was only 1,800

1355 01:06:10,319 –> 01:06:15,559 people over there. The “Lagerältester”, the civilian, was a

1356 01:06:15,559 –> 01:06:18,680 he had a red triangle – he was a political [prisoner].

1357 01:06:18,680 –> 01:06:21,240 His name was Josef Hermann or

1358 01:06:21,240 –> 01:06:26,119 Herman Josef. The “Lagerführer”, the SS man, was a

1359 01:06:26,119 –> 01:06:27,440 lieutenant, SS lieutenant,

1360 01:06:27,440 –> 01:06:31,559 he was Josef Schmidt. He was a very young

1361 01:06:31,559 –> 01:06:34,039 person, he was maybe 20, 23 years old.

1362 01:06:34,039 –> 01:06:39,960 After the war, a prosecutor came from Kiel to

1363 01:06:39,960 –> 01:06:44,340 Israel, from Kiel, Kiel is northern, Schleswig-Holstein,

1364 01:06:44,400 –> 01:06:49,039 and he asked for people who were in Furstengrube.

1365 01:06:49,039 –> 01:06:52,160 And the police contacted me because

1366 01:06:52,160 –> 01:06:53,799 they knew the people who were

1367 01:06:53,799 –> 01:06:56,960 over there, in Furstengrube, when I gave my –

1368 01:06:56,960 –> 01:06:59,160 and he asked me if I know – he showed me a picture

1369 01:06:59,160 –> 01:07:01,000 do you know Josef Schmidt

1370 01:07:01,000 –> 01:07:04,079 Lagerführer, he showed me a picture.

1371 01:07:04,079 –> 01:07:06,720 This was after maybe 15 years and I

1372 01:07:06,720 –> 01:07:09,559 said “this is the man” he said “you’re right”

1373 01:07:09,559 –> 01:07:12,240 He was hiding for 20 years.

1374 01:07:12,240 –> 01:07:15,920 And he came out now and

1375 01:07:15,920 –> 01:07:18,440 gave himself up. You wouldn’t believe how

1376 01:07:18,440 –> 01:07:20,680 he looks now, the difference, with a beard and everything.

1377 01:07:20,680 –> 01:07:24,039 He asked me only one thing.

1378 01:07:24,039 –> 01:07:28,160 “Did he kill anything? Did you see the man actually kill somebody?”

1379 01:07:28,160 –> 01:07:31,359 I remember my father

1380 01:07:31,359 –> 01:07:34,000 always use to tell me that if somebody is a

1381 01:07:34,000 –> 01:07:36,119 murderer, you don’t have right to be a

1382 01:07:36,119 –> 01:07:37,319 murderer yourself.

1383 01:07:37,319 –> 01:07:40,440 And in fact all the people who were

1384 01:07:40,440 –> 01:07:43,240 interviewed from Furstengrube, everybody said,

1385 01:07:43,240 –> 01:07:46,520 all the Jews, he didn’t discriminate because

1386 01:07:46,520 –> 01:07:48,799 he was SS, he was a German, he was

1387 01:07:48,799 –> 01:07:50,960 in charge of them. They didn’t try

1388 01:07:50,960 –> 01:07:54,000 to lie and to lie to their

1389 01:07:54,000 –> 01:07:57,200 conscience and say “yes, he was a murderer.”

1390 01:07:57,200 –> 01:08:00,119 Everybody said the same thing. “No, he was

1391 01:08:00,119 –> 01:08:03,520 not. He never killed anybody.” And it was true.

1392 01:08:03,520 –> 01:08:07,559 Because the story was,

1393 01:08:07,559 –> 01:08:09,720 before, I was not there,

1394 01:08:09,720 –> 01:08:13,480 the January before I came,

1395 01:08:13,480 –> 01:08:16,759 a year before, in January, we had Arbeitsdienstführer Moll

1396 01:08:16,760 –> 01:08:20,779 was his name, he was a Lagerführer, second in command,

1397 01:08:20,780 –> 01:08:24,799 and Moll was a mass murderer, he was such a

1398 01:08:24,799 –> 01:08:26,479 murderer that they put him after in charge

1399 01:08:26,479 –> 01:08:28,479 him they put in charge in Auschwitz, he was so good

1400 01:08:28,479 –> 01:08:32,000 at murdering people. And on Christmas night

1401 01:08:32,000 –> 01:08:34,279 all the officers over there, they had a

1402 01:08:34,279 –> 01:08:36,880 a party going on and the night

1403 01:08:36,880 –> 01:08:38,880 shift came back, the second shift came

1404 01:08:38,880 –> 01:08:40,920 at 11:00 night, back, or 1:00, I don’t

1405 01:08:40,920 –> 01:08:44,479 remember the time, 11:00 anyhow. They came

1406 01:08:44,479 –> 01:08:47,158 back and one German Kapo was missing.

1407 01:08:47,158 –> 01:08:48,279 And they don’t know why, because they used

1408 01:08:48,279 –> 01:08:49,920 to go through a corridor with barbed wires

1409 01:08:49,920 –> 01:08:51,319 on the side, and they don’t know how

1410 01:08:51,319 –> 01:08:54,600 he escaped. Moll lined up all

1411 01:08:54,600 –> 01:08:56,880 the Lager, all the camp, in the middle of the night.

1412 01:08:56,880 –> 01:08:58,399 People had to go out,

1413 01:08:58,399 –> 01:09:00,880 winter, there was snow, everything, and they

1414 01:09:00,880 –> 01:09:03,759 picked out 1, 2, 3, 4 and just machine gunned

1415 01:09:03,759 –> 01:09:07,319 Jews! The guy who escaped was a German!

1416 01:09:07,319 –> 01:09:11,120 And they said, the rumor was said, that he stopped him,

1417 01:09:11,120 –> 01:09:14,799 Schmidt, says “listen, it’s Weihnachten, it’s Christmas,

1418 01:09:14,799 –> 01:09:17,799 enough killing for one night.”

1419 01:09:17,799 –> 01:09:22,279 And he was transferred to

1420 01:09:22,279 –> 01:09:25,880 Auschwitz, up there, and he actually got his job

1421 01:09:25,880 –> 01:09:28,560 being connected well

1422 01:09:28,560 –> 01:09:31,679 because we built a new coal mine and the

1423 01:09:31,679 –> 01:09:33,960 guy in charge of the old cold mine was

1424 01:09:33,960 –> 01:09:36,880 his father-in-law and in fact his wife

1425 01:09:36,880 –> 01:09:38,640 lived over there with her sister too, two

1426 01:09:38,640 –> 01:09:40,158 blonde girls used to even come –

1427 01:09:40,158 –> 01:09:41,740 she used to see him.

1428 01:09:41,741 –> 01:09:44,479 This was Schmidt’s father-in-law? Schmidt’s father-in-law, yeah.

1429 01:09:44,479 –> 01:09:48,040 And everybody said the same.

1430 01:09:48,040 –> 01:09:51,198 No, he didn’t kill anybody.

1431 01:09:51,198 –> 01:09:54,400 And he wanted me to go to Germany, back,

1432 01:09:54,400 –> 01:09:56,759 to be a witness.

1433 01:09:56,760 –> 01:09:58,400 This, I don’t know, don’t want to go

1434 01:09:58,400 –> 01:10:00,280 to Germany, I don’t want no German

1435 01:10:00,280 –> 01:10:02,080 court, I don’t want, I have enough of it.

1436 01:10:02,080 –> 01:10:04,480 I said “you asked me the truth” I said “I’m not

1437 01:10:04,480 –> 01:10:06,560 a murderer, I’m not going to take the man’s

1438 01:10:06,560 –> 01:10:10,400 life because of what they did to us” I said

1439 01:10:10,400 –> 01:10:12,080 “I can only tell you that” saying “I didn’t

1440 01:10:12,080 –> 01:10:15,480 see him – nobody shot”. That’s it.

1441 01:10:15,480 –> 01:10:18,360 We came to Furstengrube over there

1442 01:10:18,360 –> 01:10:22,100 they sent me to work in a group with a Polish miner

1443 01:10:22,101 –> 01:10:25,880 like his helper, we used to fix the rails over there

1444 01:10:25,880 –> 01:10:30,520 there is a long hammer, with a wrench, and used to –

1445 01:10:30,520 –> 01:10:33,480 that Pole, he liked me for some reason,

1446 01:10:33,480 –> 01:10:37,000 he always said “Szalek, after

1447 01:10:37,000 –> 01:10:39,040 the war, you’ll stay here with me

1448 01:10:39,040 –> 01:10:41,199 you’ll go to marry my daughter

1449 01:10:41,199 –> 01:10:45,679 you’re a nice guy, I like you.” And the

1450 01:10:45,679 –> 01:10:47,920 most important thing, after I worked with

1451 01:10:47,920 –> 01:10:50,159 him two weeks, three weeks he used to

1452 01:10:50,159 –> 01:10:52,280 bring a breakfast for me. His wife

1453 01:10:52,280 –> 01:10:54,679 used to prepare a breakfast for myself too.

1454 01:10:54,679 –> 01:10:59,280 Two pieces of bread with butter – God!

1455 01:10:59,280 –> 01:11:02,840 I even didn’t believe – how could it happen

1456 01:11:02,840 –> 01:11:05,679 I didn’t eat anything like that in my life.

1457 01:11:05,679 –> 01:11:08,600 But I didn’t work with him, I worked

1458 01:11:08,600 –> 01:11:11,719 with him for three or four weeks, and one

1459 01:11:11,719 –> 01:11:14,000 day on we came back for work and they

1460 01:11:14,000 –> 01:11:16,480 called my number – you go to the Arbeitsdienst-

1461 01:11:16,480 –> 01:11:18,320 the man who was in charge of the work details.

1462 01:11:18,320 –> 01:11:23,120 You call your number in the concentration camp,

1463 01:11:23,120 –> 01:11:26,159 this is a very tricky affair.

1464 01:11:26,159 –> 01:11:28,440 You never know what they’re going to do with you.

1465 01:11:28,440 –> 01:11:31,199 But I go over there and the fellow

1466 01:11:31,199 –> 01:11:34,960 says to me you’re going to work with a

1467 01:11:34,960 –> 01:11:39,920 machine – in a machine shop, next Monday.

1468 01:11:39,920 –> 01:11:43,199 And I came to the machine shop and

1469 01:11:43,199 –> 01:11:45,120 who was in charge of the machine shop – that

1470 01:11:45,120 –> 01:11:48,080 fellow, the German engineer, who picked me up

1471 01:11:48,080 –> 01:11:54,320 to go to work. And this man, for some reason, at that

1472 01:11:54,320 –> 01:11:56,880 time Germany didn’t have any craftsmen.

1473 01:11:56,880 –> 01:12:00,040 They needed every man who knew something,

1474 01:12:00,040 –> 01:12:01,800 machine, to do something, for he

1475 01:12:01,800 –> 01:12:03,719 was very concerned about the victory.

1476 01:12:03,719 –> 01:12:06,159 At that time, he didn’t know, he didn’t

1477 01:12:06,159 –> 01:12:08,239 believe they were going to lose the war.

1478 01:12:08,239 –> 01:12:10,360 But, for me, that was good, because

1479 01:12:10,360 –> 01:12:15,278 he tried to do anything to make my –

1480 01:12:15,279 –> 01:12:18,989 Your life bearable? My life bearable – because people outside,

1481 01:12:18,990 –> 01:12:23,320 they used to work, dig

1482 01:12:23,320 –> 01:12:26,159 shafts, in the water, used to keep

1483 01:12:26,159 –> 01:12:30,600 steel, without the gloves,

1484 01:12:30,600 –> 01:12:32,960 and steel, frozen, you pick up

1485 01:12:32,960 –> 01:12:36,199 a piece of steel, you pick it up,

1486 01:12:36,199 –> 01:12:38,080 you can lose all your skin

1487 01:12:38,080 –> 01:12:40,360 get glued to the steel, frozen

1488 01:12:40,360 –> 01:12:43,239 steel is very dangerous and we

1489 01:12:43,239 –> 01:12:46,239 had over there a Kapo in charge

1490 01:12:46,239 –> 01:12:49,639 of the whole work detail, used to call him Wilhelm,

1491 01:12:49,639 –> 01:12:52,060 the Kaiser, his nickname was “the Kaiser”

1492 01:12:52,061 –> 01:12:54,680 he was a mass murderer, he killed his mother-in-law, his father-in-law,

1493 01:12:54,681 –> 01:12:56,989 I don’t know how many people, and he used to beat them up,

1494 01:12:56,990 –> 01:12:59,679 but in the machine shop, he

1495 01:12:59,679 –> 01:13:01,280 was not allowed to go in and

1496 01:13:01,280 –> 01:13:02,639 when you go in you had to behave,

1497 01:13:02,639 –> 01:13:05,000 as a skilled worker, he was not allowed to

1498 01:13:05,000 –> 01:13:06,880 touch you because he

1499 01:13:06,880 –> 01:13:10,520 compromises the German –

1500 01:13:12,320 –> 01:13:15,960 industrial might – he was worried

1501 01:13:15,960 –> 01:13:18,639 that that German was very –

1502 01:13:18,639 –> 01:13:21,400 keep an eye on him, that he don’t beat –

1503 01:13:21,400 –> 01:13:23,719 there were 20 Jewish prisoners working over there.

1504 01:13:23,719 –> 01:13:25,800 We had Italians working over there,

1505 01:13:25,800 –> 01:13:28,199 prisoners of war, we had French

1506 01:13:28,199 –> 01:13:30,800 civilian workers over there, many people, and it

1507 01:13:30,800 –> 01:13:32,520 was very helpful because if you

1508 01:13:32,520 –> 01:13:34,000 work with foreigners they had more

1509 01:13:34,000 –> 01:13:35,880 access to fruit, to some potatoes, they

1510 01:13:35,880 –> 01:13:39,960 give you, this give you,

1511 01:13:40,719 –> 01:13:44,159 And I worked over there until January

1512 01:13:44,159 –> 01:13:47,480 1945, January 1945

1513 01:13:49,239 –> 01:13:53,080 but what was my luck then by having a

1514 01:13:53,080 –> 01:13:57,000 little more food, this was a camp for

1515 01:13:57,000 –> 01:14:00,040 hard workers and the hard workers and

1516 01:14:00,040 –> 01:14:03,320 the camp used to be under contract to

1517 01:14:03,320 –> 01:14:04,719 …

1518 01:14:04,719 –> 01:14:08,360 You had – it’s a big German …

1519 01:14:08,360 –> 01:14:13,520 …

1520 01:14:14,040 –> 01:14:16,760 And I worked over there

1521 01:14:16,760 –> 01:14:20,080 they gave me a bit of a piece of soap,

1522 01:14:20,080 –> 01:14:23,120 a wash cloth, what you don’t have, in the concentration camp

1523 01:14:23,120 –> 01:14:25,280 you didn’t have a towel, nothing, your shirt

1524 01:14:25,280 –> 01:14:27,760 was a towel and that’s it.

1525 01:14:27,760 –> 01:14:30,760 And we used to get – what the best

1526 01:14:30,760 –> 01:14:32,800 thing we used to get – a soup a day, but we

1527 01:14:32,800 –> 01:14:36,639 used to get three times 350 grams of bread and

1528 01:14:36,639 –> 01:14:40,000 four times 700 grams of bread. This was

1529 01:14:40,000 –> 01:14:44,600 from my – I used to stand over there

1530 01:14:44,600 –> 01:14:47,080 next to the lathe all the time chew, chew

1531 01:14:47,080 –> 01:14:49,960 whatever I get. And foreman, Adam was

1532 01:14:49,960 –> 01:14:53,040 his name, he says “why you eating like a

1533 01:14:53,040 –> 01:14:56,320 like a …, like a cow, you chew,

1534 01:14:56,320 –> 01:14:58,840 I said listen, I’m hungry,

1535 01:14:58,840 –> 01:15:00,080 four years I didn’t have a piece of

1536 01:15:00,080 –> 01:15:02,679 bread. I’m hungry. I store bread from

1537 01:15:02,679 –> 01:15:05,880 everybody, and this spot – and those

1538 01:15:05,880 –> 01:15:08,560 few months over there, they brought me,

1539 01:15:08,560 –> 01:15:11,560 back to my strength. And I always thinking

1540 01:15:11,560 –> 01:15:13,719 that my mother might see me

1541 01:15:13,719 –> 01:15:16,000 that I have my life and I’m doing,

1542 01:15:16,000 –> 01:15:18,239 compared to the circumstance,

1543 01:15:18,239 –> 01:15:19,120 I’m doing better, well –

1544 01:15:19,121 –> 01:15:21,119 You didn’t have any idea that she was –

1545 01:15:21,120 –> 01:15:23,400 No. I said, I’m the only kid,

1546 01:15:23,400 –> 01:15:25,560 the only son, she maybe

1547 01:15:25,560 –> 01:15:27,880 even while dying, she was

1548 01:15:27,880 –> 01:15:29,920 thinking about her kid. And I said:

1549 01:15:29,920 –> 01:15:34,400 I wish she, she shouldn’t –

1550 01:15:59,320 –> 01:16:02,040 Yeah. And this just was –

1551 01:16:02,040 –> 01:16:04,199 that I came a little to –

1552 01:16:04,199 –> 01:16:08,320 my strength, over there. In January 1945,

1553 01:16:08,320 –> 01:16:12,160 the big retreat began.

1554 01:16:12,161 –> 01:16:15,579 From Auschwitz, they started to take all the people out.

1555 01:16:15,580 –> 01:16:19,440 Somebody tried to hide and

1556 01:16:19,440 –> 01:16:22,040 maybe they survived. In Auschwitz they

1557 01:16:22,040 –> 01:16:24,239 killed all of the people, maybe only a few

1558 01:16:24,239 –> 01:16:28,880 survivors when the Russians came. And we were, actually,

1559 01:16:28,880 –> 01:16:30,639 normally a strong bunch of people, only

1560 01:16:30,639 –> 01:16:33,040 1,800 of us, and we started to march.

1561 01:16:33,040 –> 01:16:35,880 We started to march and I remember

1562 01:16:35,880 –> 01:16:38,560 the guy from the … gave me

1563 01:16:38,560 –> 01:16:41,600 a … I don’t know it what was.

1564 01:16:41,600 –> 01:16:44,960 And we walked over there, and we had

1565 01:16:44,960 –> 01:16:48,159 some carriages that we had to push, and

1566 01:16:48,159 –> 01:16:51,280 I had a friend, his name is …, he

1567 01:16:51,280 –> 01:16:53,400 still lives in Israel, they gave us two

1568 01:16:53,400 –> 01:16:55,679 sticks, the SS, and put his … on it, and

1569 01:16:55,679 –> 01:16:58,440 we had to carry it for him – and we

1570 01:16:58,440 –> 01:17:01,000 marched from Kattowitz to Gleiwitz, I think maybe 80

1571 01:17:01,000 –> 01:17:03,080 kilometers, I don’t know, but –

1572 01:17:03,080 –> 01:17:06,040 the snow, and people had

1573 01:17:06,040 –> 01:17:08,960 those wooden boots, but I was lucky – in

1574 01:17:08,960 –> 01:17:11,639 the concentration camp when I worked in a

1575 01:17:11,639 –> 01:17:15,239 machine shop, they had to give you leather shoes.

1576 01:17:15,239 –> 01:17:17,760 I couldn’t work with the

1577 01:17:17,760 –> 01:17:19,400 old shoes. They gave me

1578 01:17:19,400 –> 01:17:22,320 leather shoes. And the snow

1579 01:17:22,320 –> 01:17:25,080 didn’t stick to it, you can walk. And we

1580 01:17:25,080 –> 01:17:26,760 walked over there

1581 01:17:26,760 –> 01:17:30,000 and all the time, they’re shooting in the back,

1582 01:17:30,000 –> 01:17:32,480 they shooting everybody who’s left behind,

1583 01:17:32,480 –> 01:17:34,080 they just killed him.

1584 01:17:34,080 –> 01:17:37,040 You have to go for forward, there was no

1585 01:17:37,040 –> 01:17:39,480 way, some people maybe escaped, but I tell

1586 01:17:39,480 –> 01:17:42,400 you, I never had – I always, I don’t know,

1587 01:17:42,400 –> 01:17:44,560 I never tried to escape, I don’t know why.

1588 01:17:44,560 –> 01:17:47,320 But we were carrying those

1589 01:17:47,320 –> 01:17:48,480 sticks with a …

1590 01:17:48,480 –> 01:17:53,280 And even the SS, a that time, the SS,

1591 01:17:53,280 –> 01:17:57,360 even they couldn’t make it.

1592 01:17:57,360 –> 01:17:59,199 But I said to the friend, listen we’re

1593 01:17:59,199 –> 01:18:00,840 not going to make with this …

1594 01:18:00,840 –> 01:18:03,480 here on – just throw it away and

1595 01:18:03,480 –> 01:18:04,960 just run forward and that’s it, because

1596 01:18:04,960 –> 01:18:07,280 we all have the same green hat like

1597 01:18:07,280 –> 01:18:09,320 that with the stripe overcoat

1598 01:18:09,320 –> 01:18:11,199 who knows – he’s going to look?

1599 01:18:11,199 –> 01:18:12,989 Did you have any idea where you going?

1600 01:18:12,990 –> 01:18:17,920 No, no they just moved us, the SS.

1601 01:18:17,920 –> 01:18:20,920 We came, and then we threw it away, we

1602 01:18:20,920 –> 01:18:22,840 ran away, and he was hollering over there

1603 01:18:22,840 –> 01:18:24,960 “where are my things”

1604 01:18:24,960 –> 01:18:29,920 We forget it. Then, we found, over there

1605 01:18:29,920 –> 01:18:33,480 we rested a little, we found one of the

1606 01:18:33,480 –> 01:18:35,440 lorries that we had, that we pushed,

1607 01:18:35,440 –> 01:18:36,679 the small lorries.

1608 01:18:36,679 –> 01:18:38,880 And on the lorry, in the

1609 01:18:38,880 –> 01:18:42,880 concentration camp, they make

1610 01:18:42,880 –> 01:18:45,719 soup, pea soup, from powder

1611 01:18:45,719 –> 01:18:47,320 you’ll add water

1612 01:18:47,320 –> 01:18:50,800 I saw that thing, I said you’ll

1613 01:18:50,800 –> 01:18:53,080 never know, it’s some food.

1614 01:18:53,080 –> 01:18:55,400 I took – I had an extra shirt, I took

1615 01:18:55,400 –> 01:18:58,639 the shirt, and made from – tore off those

1616 01:18:58,639 –> 01:19:00,880 arms, I made like sacks and

1617 01:19:00,880 –> 01:19:04,080 put the powder in, and put under my –

1618 01:19:04,080 –> 01:19:08,120 I said to my friend, Franz over there, Henryk

1619 01:19:08,120 –> 01:19:10,120 maybe we’ll need it, we’ll take it.

1620 01:19:10,120 –> 01:19:14,400 Now we came to Gleiwitz – Gleiwitz, now the Polish

1621 01:19:14,400 –> 01:19:17,760 call it Gliwice, now it’s Poland, at that time it was German.

1622 01:19:17,760 –> 01:19:23,080 … we come to the

1623 01:19:23,719 –> 01:19:27,120 there was a station, the station, you

1624 01:19:27,120 –> 01:19:31,520 come in the station, and bodies like wood logs.

1625 01:19:31,520 –> 01:19:34,560 This way, this way,

1626 01:19:34,560 –> 01:19:39,000 5, 6 feet high. Just people,

1627 01:19:39,000 –> 01:19:41,760 human bodies, laid out like – corpses,

1628 01:19:41,760 –> 01:19:43,800 not just throwing – like laid out nice

1629 01:19:43,800 –> 01:19:45,719 like wooden logs, like you

1630 01:19:45,719 –> 01:19:48,719 store wood – stacked – yeah, and stacked and

1631 01:19:48,719 –> 01:19:51,040 they put chloride, or something – white

1632 01:19:51,040 –> 01:19:53,639 powder on top of it. Lime?

1633 01:19:53,639 –> 01:19:55,960 And they put them all in the station –

1634 01:19:59,120 –> 01:20:02,080 There was a cabinet over there – all night

1635 01:20:02,080 –> 01:20:04,000 I stood in the cabinet and slept. There was no

1636 01:20:04,000 –> 01:20:08,040 place to lay down. In the morning,

1637 01:20:08,040 –> 01:20:10,719 they said everybody on the railroad – up

1638 01:20:10,719 –> 01:20:12,040 There were open lorries –

1639 01:20:12,040 –> 01:20:14,840 not closed, this time open.

1640 01:20:14,840 –> 01:20:17,840 Like you move coal, anything. Okay – open

1641 01:20:17,840 –> 01:20:21,159 lorries and yes, what I had, when I went

1642 01:20:21,159 –> 01:20:25,199 from the concentration camp – I took one of the,

1643 01:20:25,199 –> 01:20:27,199 I had a good blanket, it was a

1644 01:20:27,199 –> 01:20:29,199 woolen blanket from the rich Jews.

1645 01:20:29,199 –> 01:20:31,360 They took it away, they gave it –

1646 01:20:31,360 –> 01:20:33,440 and I made a whole poncho, like a

1647 01:20:33,440 –> 01:20:36,199 Mexican, I put it on myself and wore it like that,

1648 01:20:36,199 –> 01:20:40,320 protect you from the wind, it was January in Poland.

1649 01:20:40,320 –> 01:20:44,920 Open lorries, my friend – we had a …

1650 01:20:44,920 –> 01:20:48,520 Like food, and pot, and he has a pot,

1651 01:20:48,520 –> 01:20:51,679 and we come out and we sit down in the lorries,

1652 01:20:51,679 –> 01:20:56,000 oh it’s nice, we’re going to go –

1653 01:20:56,000 –> 01:20:58,280 we cannot sit anymore, more people, more

1654 01:20:58,280 –> 01:21:00,080 people – we cannot stand anymore,

1655 01:21:00,080 –> 01:21:02,840 they packed the people like herrings

1656 01:21:02,840 –> 01:21:05,560 and you had to be lucky, you

1657 01:21:05,560 –> 01:21:08,040 had your back against the wall, because

1658 01:21:08,040 –> 01:21:10,320 people in the middle they got crazy

1659 01:21:10,320 –> 01:21:13,199 jumped about, they got all crazy. You wouldn’t

1660 01:21:13,199 –> 01:21:15,800 believe what was going on on that train.

1661 01:21:15,800 –> 01:21:17,679 They put the train – they couldn’t go

1662 01:21:17,679 –> 01:21:20,320 through Poznań to Germany that way.

1663 01:21:20,320 –> 01:21:22,918 You had to go through Czechoslovakia,

1664 01:21:22,919 –> 01:21:26,679 for seven days we traveled in that train.

1665 01:21:26,680 –> 01:21:29,840 We came, the first time, there was –

1666 01:21:29,840 –> 01:21:31,600 we had a Croatian SS.

1667 01:21:31,600 –> 01:21:34,040 I will never forget, we came the

1668 01:21:34,040 –> 01:21:36,520 first time, and he says to us “we have no food.”

1669 01:21:36,520 –> 01:21:38,639 They didn’t give us – they gave us a

1670 01:21:38,639 –> 01:21:42,120 piece of bread and that’s it.

1671 01:21:42,120 –> 01:21:43,960 After two days you didn’t have any food

1672 01:21:43,960 –> 01:21:48,400 how are you – I was lucky, I used to take

1673 01:21:48,400 –> 01:21:50,719 with our belts, we used to take

1674 01:21:50,719 –> 01:21:52,520 the pot and we used to pick up some

1675 01:21:52,520 –> 01:21:55,639 snow and I had that powder, I mixed it

1676 01:21:55,639 –> 01:21:58,918 together and we ate it and it was – so salty!

1677 01:21:58,919 –> 01:22:01,239 What you ate, you want to drink,

1678 01:22:01,240 –> 01:22:03,560 but we were lucky, we went – next,

1679 01:22:03,560 –> 01:22:06,880 you were protected – your back.

1680 01:22:06,880 –> 01:22:10,239 The people in the middle, they had –

1681 01:22:10,239 –> 01:22:12,440 they ate their belt, they ate their shoes.

1682 01:22:12,440 –> 01:22:14,840 You wouldn’t believe. There was nothing to eat,

1683 01:22:14,840 –> 01:22:17,419 nothing to drink. They went mad, they got crazy.

1684 01:22:17,420 –> 01:22:19,719 Then after two days we stopped and

1685 01:22:19,719 –> 01:22:22,419 then the SS says “throw out the bodies.”

1686 01:22:22,420 –> 01:22:25,299 We said “what bodies?”

1687 01:22:25,300 –> 01:22:26,219 “There’s no bodies.”

1688 01:22:26,220 –> 01:22:29,760 “Look down.” We looked down, and we didn’t

1689 01:22:29,760 –> 01:22:31,519 believe it – we were standing on dead people.

1690 01:22:31,520 –> 01:22:34,439 What did the people do, they starved to death, the people.

1691 01:22:34,440 –> 01:22:36,760 At first, we start looking, can you

1692 01:22:36,760 –> 01:22:38,440 believe that the people after two

1693 01:22:38,440 –> 01:22:40,199 days over there they still have the bread,

1694 01:22:40,199 –> 01:22:42,520 they didn’t eat the bread, they saved it.

1695 01:22:42,520 –> 01:22:44,239 We used to rob them of what they had,

1696 01:22:44,239 –> 01:22:47,480 maybe they had some food.

1697 01:22:47,480 –> 01:22:51,239 We had to open up, line up

1698 01:22:51,239 –> 01:22:53,800 in a line over there, next to the stop –

1699 01:22:55,480 –> 01:22:58,360 And I remember he says “everybody up” and

1700 01:22:58,360 –> 01:23:01,280 we went up fast, and one guy didn’t make

1701 01:23:01,280 –> 01:23:03,560 it, and he took his gun and shot him.

1702 01:23:03,560 –> 01:23:06,639 And we all ducked, but we, saw his hands,

1703 01:23:06,639 –> 01:23:09,080 like he grabbed his hands inside,

1704 01:23:09,080 –> 01:23:11,880 and he shot him again.

1705 01:23:11,880 –> 01:23:15,639 This was a Croatian SS, in

1706 01:23:15,639 –> 01:23:19,520 our concentration camp.

1707 01:23:20,080 –> 01:23:25,280 We drove through Czechoslovakia.

1708 01:23:25,280 –> 01:23:28,800 Czechoslovakia – the people were great.

1709 01:23:28,800 –> 01:23:31,080 You have the train, the overpass going, they were

1710 01:23:31,080 –> 01:23:33,520 standing over the overpass and throwing in bread

1711 01:23:33,520 –> 01:23:36,199 and fruit and speck and everything. They

1712 01:23:36,199 –> 01:23:38,400 used to run along the thing with water,

1713 01:23:38,400 –> 01:23:41,080 really – kids. And the SS used to not

1714 01:23:41,080 –> 01:23:44,159 shoot, but they scared them away. But the

1715 01:23:44,159 –> 01:23:46,199 only place what you really – they knew,

1716 01:23:46,199 –> 01:23:50,639 miles away they knew, the Czechs, that there

1717 01:23:50,639 –> 01:23:53,600 were prisoners, a camp, and you see – every

1718 01:23:53,600 –> 01:23:55,600 place there was an overpass, they just threw everything

1719 01:23:55,600 –> 01:23:58,520 that they had, dumped and –

1720 01:23:58,520 –> 01:24:01,159 We came to Prague.

1721 01:24:01,159 –> 01:24:04,000 We came to Prague, and the train is

1722 01:24:04,000 –> 01:24:06,000 standing over there, and at that time it was

1723 01:24:06,000 –> 01:24:11,280 already seven, six days with maybe

1724 01:24:11,280 –> 01:24:15,280 60 people – it was already one

1725 01:24:15,280 –> 01:24:18,639 third full, it was two thirds empty.

1726 01:24:18,639 –> 01:24:22,880 And I, myself slept a little and my

1727 01:24:22,880 –> 01:24:25,280 friend used to watch me, that nobody –

1728 01:24:25,280 –> 01:24:27,639 because people just –

1729 01:24:27,639 –> 01:24:32,199 got mad – you could,

1730 01:24:32,199 –> 01:24:33,960 you fought all the time. I went from

1731 01:24:33,960 –> 01:24:35,679 the train, I was all scratched, I didn’t

1732 01:24:35,679 –> 01:24:38,120 even believe, from fighting.

1733 01:24:38,120 –> 01:24:40,719 He protected me, I protected him – so nobody

1734 01:24:40,719 –> 01:24:45,080 grabs us or takes us – you couldn’t just

1735 01:24:45,080 –> 01:24:49,920 We came to Prague, we came to Prague.

1736 01:24:49,920 –> 01:24:52,960 On the main station – but there was

1737 01:24:52,960 –> 01:24:54,960 already a place for everybody, because so

1738 01:24:54,960 –> 01:24:57,400 many we left, so many dead over there.

1739 01:24:57,400 –> 01:25:00,480 They said they had 10,000 people on the

1740 01:25:00,480 –> 01:25:03,000 transport, and only 2,000 arrived, actually.

1741 01:25:03,000 –> 01:25:06,000 He tells me, just died on the –

1742 01:25:06,000 –> 01:25:08,920 I’m telling you, you had to have the will, you cannot

1743 01:25:08,920 –> 01:25:11,560 even believe, and I was lucky I had a few months

1744 01:25:11,560 –> 01:25:13,320 where I was in the concentration camp, with the six

1745 01:25:13,320 –> 01:25:15,199 months, I get a little strength, I was not

1746 01:25:15,199 –> 01:25:18,520 like I came from the ghetto,

1747 01:25:18,520 –> 01:25:21,040 I grew, I don’t know what happened.

1748 01:25:21,040 –> 01:25:24,040 I don’t know. Maybe it was just a lust for

1749 01:25:24,040 –> 01:25:26,760 life, who knows. Can you believe, they’re

1750 01:25:26,760 –> 01:25:31,119 standing over, whole lorries over there, luggage –

1751 01:25:31,119 –> 01:25:33,679 filled with the German bread, the

1752 01:25:33,679 –> 01:25:36,119 military bread, and this soldier is standing over there,

1753 01:25:36,119 –> 01:25:37,960 this old guard, old German.

1754 01:25:37,960 –> 01:25:41,360 And I said to him in German, I said “Sir,

1755 01:25:41,360 –> 01:25:43,080 we didn’t eat for five days. Can you give

1756 01:25:43,080 –> 01:25:45,440 us a piece of bread?” Would you believe, he

1757 01:25:45,440 –> 01:25:48,639 took a bread and gave it to me.

1758 01:25:48,960 –> 01:25:55,280 I only had a piece of it because,

1759 01:25:55,280 –> 01:25:57,400 all the rest –

1760 01:25:57,400 –> 01:26:02,119 he brought a few more for those people in there.

1761 01:26:02,119 –> 01:26:10,280 And we arrived in Nordhausen, Dora.

1762 01:26:10,280 –> 01:26:13,480 Nordhausen was in Thuringia, it was not East

1763 01:26:13,480 –> 01:26:17,040 Germany. This was a concentration camp.

1764 01:26:17,040 –> 01:26:20,960 There was all buried, the people, just straight up.

1765 01:26:20,960 –> 01:26:25,760 And they manufactured the V-1, V-2 bombs,

1766 01:26:25,760 –> 01:26:28,440 they used to make over there. Everything was manufactured

1767 01:26:28,440 –> 01:26:31,400 inside. One of the scientists here

1768 01:26:31,400 –> 01:26:33,040 was later in the news, he was in

1769 01:26:33,040 –> 01:26:34,920 charge over there, in Nordhausen.

1770 01:26:34,920 –> 01:26:37,000 Now, I want to tell you another thing.

1771 01:26:37,000 –> 01:26:39,320 In Furstengrube, what happened before

1772 01:26:39,320 –> 01:26:46,719 we left. In Furstengrube, the camp had

1773 01:26:48,520 –> 01:26:52,080 a stone wall and there was a barrack

1774 01:26:52,080 –> 01:26:54,239 here and on the other side there was a

1775 01:26:54,239 –> 01:26:57,679 railroad going. Then, five Polish guys, or

1776 01:26:57,679 –> 01:26:59,639 four Polish guys, and a

1777 01:26:59,639 –> 01:27:02,639 Jewish fellow, they dug a tunnel, under

1778 01:27:02,639 –> 01:27:06,280 the wall, to reach the station over there.

1779 01:27:06,280 –> 01:27:08,679 The railroad – always used to go,

1780 01:27:08,679 –> 01:27:11,639 the trains with coals used to go.

1781 01:27:11,639 –> 01:27:15,840 And each barrack had a big bin,

1782 01:27:15,840 –> 01:27:17,840 like a wooden bin, where you used

1783 01:27:17,840 –> 01:27:20,000 to bring coals over there – put it – each

1784 01:27:20,000 –> 01:27:21,560 one, used to come from their shift, used to

1785 01:27:21,560 –> 01:27:23,920 bring a piece of coal to heat the barrack.

1786 01:27:25,040 –> 01:27:27,320 And the guys, from that bin they

1787 01:27:27,320 –> 01:27:29,520 made a double – and they dig out.

1788 01:27:29,520 –> 01:27:33,440 And they almost were finished, then

1789 01:27:33,440 –> 01:27:36,520 the train came around and they brought a new,

1790 01:27:36,520 –> 01:27:38,840 for the bathroom, we had over there a big

1791 01:27:38,840 –> 01:27:40,320 bathroom because the people, coming from the

1792 01:27:40,320 –> 01:27:42,159 shift, from the night shift, they used to take a

1793 01:27:42,159 –> 01:27:44,040 shower, because they were all back –

1794 01:27:44,040 –> 01:27:47,560 There they brought a big pressure

1795 01:27:47,560 –> 01:27:50,320 stove, I don’t know what, big

1796 01:27:50,320 –> 01:27:52,800 steel piece and dumped it

1797 01:27:52,800 –> 01:27:55,280 from the truck, from the

1798 01:27:55,280 –> 01:27:58,880 railroad car, and everything collapsed.

1799 01:27:58,880 –> 01:28:01,560 And then the SS found out.

1800 01:28:01,560 –> 01:28:07,920 No – there was, next few weeks Sunday

1801 01:28:07,920 –> 01:28:11,520 morning, all the big SS came from

1802 01:28:11,520 –> 01:28:15,760 Auschwitz, they gave us extra good soup,

1803 01:28:15,760 –> 01:28:18,199 because normally the SS used to steal from our food too,

1804 01:28:18,199 –> 01:28:19,840 but that time to show off how

1805 01:28:19,840 –> 01:28:21,800 good they treat us they gave us a

1806 01:28:21,800 –> 01:28:24,639 piece of borscht in it, like –

1807 01:28:24,639 –> 01:28:28,960 pea soup, and everything in big this – and they

1808 01:28:28,960 –> 01:28:33,280 took, out scaffolding, and hanged all five of them.

1809 01:28:33,280 –> 01:28:36,199 Everybody has to stand up on

1810 01:28:36,199 –> 01:28:38,040 the pillar, everybody had to look up.

1811 01:28:38,040 –> 01:28:40,239 Because they tried to escape, and this

1812 01:28:40,239 –> 01:28:45,880 is the punishment.

1813 01:28:47,600 –> 01:28:50,199 But that was one, what I already,

1814 01:28:50,199 –> 01:28:53,199 face to face, so

1815 01:28:53,199 –> 01:28:56,400 like people in the ghetto, also was one –

1816 01:28:56,400 –> 01:28:59,040 they hanged a person who tried to escape,

1817 01:28:59,040 –> 01:29:01,360 it was a German Jewm he tried to escape and

1818 01:29:01,360 –> 01:29:05,679 he went through, out of the ghetto,

1819 01:29:05,679 –> 01:29:07,920 he spoke good German –

1820 01:29:07,920 –> 01:29:10,520 but for some reason, they must’ve

1821 01:29:10,520 –> 01:29:12,840 left something on it, and the Poles saw it, and

1822 01:29:12,840 –> 01:29:15,880 they gave him to the Germans, and

1823 01:29:15,880 –> 01:29:17,360 they brought him back to the ghetto and they

1824 01:29:17,360 –> 01:29:19,639 hanged him also – show what

1825 01:29:19,639 –> 01:29:21,199 happens when somebody escaped. It was

1826 01:29:21,199 –> 01:29:23,600 no party, there was no monkey business.

1827 01:29:23,600 –> 01:29:26,520 Your life was nothing.

1828 01:29:26,520 –> 01:29:29,639 You were nobody.

1829 01:29:29,639 –> 01:29:31,560 The Germans, they show such a big love

1830 01:29:31,560 –> 01:29:34,719 for animals, their dogs, their cats – the Jew,

1831 01:29:34,719 –> 01:29:39,800 for him, it was not a human being at all.

1832 01:29:39,800 –> 01:29:43,960 And we came over there in Nordhausen,

1833 01:29:43,960 –> 01:29:47,080 we stayed for a few days.

1834 01:29:47,080 –> 01:29:50,679 Also the luck was, when we came to Nordhausen

1835 01:29:50,679 –> 01:29:54,159 we were lucky, we came from the train to a big wash

1836 01:29:54,159 –> 01:29:56,800 room, and people were standing over there

1837 01:29:56,800 –> 01:29:59,520 in the washroom for hours drinking water.

1838 01:29:59,520 –> 01:30:02,880 They hydrated – I myself, for a half

1839 01:30:02,880 –> 01:30:04,880 hour I drank water. Just the water,

1840 01:30:04,880 –> 01:30:07,400 I didn’t drink water, I don’t

1841 01:30:07,400 –> 01:30:10,360 know, only the snow for seven days, for eight days.

1842 01:30:10,360 –> 01:30:12,880 And this was lucky, they put us in

1843 01:30:12,880 –> 01:30:16,400 the washroom, we could –

1844 01:30:18,760 –> 01:30:23,159 we went over there, and we came and

1845 01:30:23,159 –> 01:30:27,960 we hung out for a few days and

1846 01:30:28,080 –> 01:30:32,040 make a big – at that time, the SS

1847 01:30:32,040 –> 01:30:35,880 they looked for a business to go on.

1848 01:30:35,880 –> 01:30:38,440 If they didn’t have the business to

1849 01:30:38,440 –> 01:30:41,159 go on, they were sent to the Russian front

1850 01:30:41,159 –> 01:30:42,840 to protect the Fatherland.

1851 01:30:42,840 –> 01:30:46,480 And now, Lagerführer, was always in a clique

1852 01:30:46,480 –> 01:30:48,840 over there, they had 10, 15 SS men,

1853 01:30:48,840 –> 01:30:51,040 they looked for ways out. They have

1854 01:30:51,040 –> 01:30:52,520 to have Häftling, they have to have

1855 01:30:52,520 –> 01:30:54,639 prisoners, to guard them,

1856 01:30:54,639 –> 01:30:56,320 so they’re not going to send them –

1857 01:30:56,320 –> 01:30:57,119 he’s not free.

1858 01:30:57,119 –> 01:31:01,080 And over there, I met my

1859 01:31:01,080 –> 01:31:04,880 sister’s friend, Judenherz. He had a

1860 01:31:04,880 –> 01:31:07,280 broken arm.

1861 01:31:07,280 –> 01:31:09,880 I wanted to help him, or to stay with

1862 01:31:09,880 –> 01:31:11,719 him, together, and see what’s

1863 01:31:11,719 –> 01:31:14,320 going on. And I’m going over there, we

1864 01:31:14,320 –> 01:31:19,040 had a guy, SS, who used to bring us

1865 01:31:19,040 –> 01:31:21,080 all every day to work. It was an Austrian

1866 01:31:21,080 –> 01:31:23,239 actually, a short fellow, but he was not

1867 01:31:23,239 –> 01:31:25,400 so bad, he never mistreated nobody. He was

1868 01:31:25,400 –> 01:31:27,880 an older fellow, maybe in the forties. Because at

1869 01:31:27,880 –> 01:31:30,639 that time, already many changed, the SS

1870 01:31:30,639 –> 01:31:32,560 became older. They took the young SS

1871 01:31:32,560 –> 01:31:33,880 and sent them to the front, they brought

1872 01:31:33,880 –> 01:31:36,159 older people and put them in guard.

1873 01:31:36,159 –> 01:31:39,280 But – the murderer, the Croatian he

1874 01:31:39,280 –> 01:31:42,400 was second in charge of the Lagerführer – he stayed

1875 01:31:42,400 –> 01:31:44,920 all the time, to the very end – the one

1876 01:31:44,920 –> 01:31:46,520 who shot that fellow.

1877 01:31:46,520 –> 01:31:50,000 And that Austrian, and I’m standing over

1878 01:31:50,000 –> 01:31:54,719 on … and he says “oh, everybody …” and he,

1879 01:31:54,719 –> 01:31:57,000 I wanted to go with my –

1880 01:31:57,000 –> 01:32:01,400 the guy Judenherz. And he says “Du kleiner Dreher”,

1881 01:32:01,400 –> 01:32:04,040 says “hey, you small hand lathe”, he grabbed me

1882 01:32:04,040 –> 01:32:07,199 here by the – you come with us. And they

1883 01:32:07,199 –> 01:32:10,199 had from 1,800 left to maybe 100, maybe

1884 01:32:10,199 –> 01:32:12,920 it was already 800 or 1,000 died on the way,

1885 01:32:12,920 –> 01:32:15,679 through all the ordeals of the seven days,

1886 01:32:15,679 –> 01:32:18,679 where maybe 800 people, 400, 500,

1887 01:32:18,679 –> 01:32:21,440 I don’t remember, but he remembers that I was a

1888 01:32:21,440 –> 01:32:24,320 craftsman, I was a skilled worker,

1889 01:32:24,320 –> 01:32:26,760 then they picked up 300 people, and brought

1890 01:32:26,760 –> 01:32:29,679 us to … also Tuttlingen.

1891 01:32:29,679 –> 01:32:33,239 Over there we, built the new plant

1892 01:32:33,239 –> 01:32:37,000 under, in the mountains.

1893 01:32:37,000 –> 01:32:40,000 It was very primitive, they have …

1894 01:32:40,000 –> 01:32:41,280 they have nothing,

1895 01:32:41,280 –> 01:32:44,960 with 15 SS and then 300 people.

1896 01:32:44,960 –> 01:32:48,159 When everybody worked over there, dig a little, it was

1897 01:32:48,159 –> 01:32:50,560 not actually – it was nothing much to do,

1898 01:32:50,560 –> 01:32:53,320 I used to work, they gave me in –

1899 01:32:53,320 –> 01:32:56,199 one of the corridors, in the

1900 01:32:56,199 –> 01:32:58,040 mine – it was like a mine, they

1901 01:32:58,040 –> 01:32:59,600 dig out the mountain – they wanted

1902 01:32:59,600 –> 01:33:03,159 to bring all the war production underground, that cannot be

1903 01:33:03,159 –> 01:33:05,440 bombed. And that’s what they used to do and

1904 01:33:05,440 –> 01:33:08,480 there was over there a machine shop with

1905 01:33:08,480 –> 01:33:12,600 Ukrainians working, Ukrainian civil workers.

1906 01:33:12,600 –> 01:33:17,840 And I used to do, it was not much to do.

1907 01:33:17,840 –> 01:33:22,239 This was in April. They were hanging over there for

1908 01:33:22,239 –> 01:33:25,679 a month, maybe five, six weeks.

1909 01:33:25,679 –> 01:33:28,800 And the war is going on,

1910 01:33:28,800 –> 01:33:31,360 and the Ukrainian, we had with the

1911 01:33:31,360 –> 01:33:33,280 Ukrainian, we’re going home.

1912 01:33:33,280 –> 01:33:37,280 They tried to prepare everything to go

1913 01:33:37,280 –> 01:33:41,560 home. And we didn’t know what will happen to us.

1914 01:33:42,119 –> 01:33:46,960 One day, they take us, and we march,

1915 01:33:46,960 –> 01:33:51,800 start marching. We’re marching – Magdeburg,

1916 01:33:51,800 –> 01:33:53,960 big city, and I marched over there in the

1917 01:33:53,960 –> 01:33:56,119 street with the SS, and I see young

1918 01:33:56,119 –> 01:33:59,480 kids, going on, my age – boys and girls,

1919 01:33:59,480 –> 01:34:02,119 free, going in the city and

1920 01:34:02,119 –> 01:34:04,440 I’m here like a prisoner under guard,

1921 01:34:04,440 –> 01:34:06,880 going on the side of the road,

1922 01:34:06,880 –> 01:34:08,960 in the middle and under gun,

1923 01:34:08,960 –> 01:34:11,960 like “what did I do to those people?”

1924 01:34:11,960 –> 01:34:14,119 “why do they treat me like that?” I said,

1925 01:34:14,119 –> 01:34:16,440 “all my youth wasted”

1926 01:34:16,440 –> 01:34:18,800 The best years, best five years that a

1927 01:34:18,800 –> 01:34:21,199 young man has, go to high

1928 01:34:21,199 –> 01:34:23,760 school, girls, dating.

1929 01:34:23,760 –> 01:34:25,360 You fight for your life, all

1930 01:34:25,360 –> 01:34:28,400 the time, you’re starved, you’re beaten, your

1931 01:34:28,400 –> 01:34:30,520 parents are gone.

1932 01:34:30,520 –> 01:34:33,840 You didn’t think about it. You didn’t think.

1933 01:34:33,840 –> 01:34:36,480 I remember, when I was liberated, I was

1934 01:34:36,480 –> 01:34:39,520 sure that the whole world would be at my hands.

1935 01:34:39,520 –> 01:34:42,119 They would kiss me on the hands, like that.

1936 01:34:42,119 –> 01:34:45,159 That there’s nobody who would refuse me.

1937 01:34:45,159 –> 01:34:47,800 What I went through, what

1938 01:34:47,800 –> 01:34:49,840 they did to me, for what?

1939 01:34:49,840 –> 01:34:53,520 We marched to Heiligenstadt, another city,

1940 01:34:53,520 –> 01:34:55,520 we marched for days, marched too.

1941 01:34:55,520 –> 01:34:59,719 They brought us to the Elba river.

1942 01:34:59,719 –> 01:35:03,400 And they put us on a big ship,

1943 01:35:03,400 –> 01:35:08,639 in a tow boat.

1944 01:35:08,639 –> 01:35:10,600 In front of it, and used to schlep two of them,

1945 01:35:10,600 –> 01:35:12,840 two big, how they call them?

1946 01:35:12,840 –> 01:35:15,440 Lorries, the big lorries and

1947 01:35:15,440 –> 01:35:18,600 up front is an engine

1948 01:35:18,600 –> 01:35:23,920 and we go for two, three,

1949 01:35:23,920 –> 01:35:26,119 I don’t know how many days, we went all the

1950 01:35:26,119 –> 01:35:28,960 way to Northern Germany, to the Kaiser –

1951 01:35:28,960 –> 01:35:33,800 from the Elba in the Kaiser Wilhelm Canal, and we

1952 01:35:33,800 –> 01:35:39,600 end up in Lübeck on the Ostsee. The canal goes to Lübeck on the Ostsee.

1953 01:35:40,920 –> 01:35:44,560 And they took us out

1954 01:35:44,560 –> 01:35:52,440 and what it was is that they took us out, and said Josef Schmidt,

1955 01:35:52,440 –> 01:35:57,600 his parents, had a big farm in Schleswig-Holstein, Anspeck,

1956 01:35:57,600 –> 01:36:00,600 the small town was called Anspeck, and they

1957 01:36:00,600 –> 01:36:03,040 were farmers – he came from that place, and

1958 01:36:03,040 –> 01:36:04,960 he says what am I going to do, I’m going –

1959 01:36:04,960 –> 01:36:07,400 I keep my business

1960 01:36:07,400 –> 01:36:10,159 upright and then I go take

1961 01:36:10,159 –> 01:36:11,840 the people with me that we have to

1962 01:36:11,840 –> 01:36:14,159 guard them all the time and he saw the

1963 01:36:14,159 –> 01:36:16,159 Russians are coming in Thuringia

1964 01:36:16,159 –> 01:36:18,280 and we have to go some place and he took

1965 01:36:18,280 –> 01:36:20,719 us to his place, where he

1966 01:36:20,719 –> 01:36:23,199 lives over there, and they put

1967 01:36:23,199 –> 01:36:26,440 us in a big building over there on

1968 01:36:26,440 –> 01:36:31,080 the road, and we, the 300 people, maybe 250

1969 01:36:31,080 –> 01:36:33,960 already, on one side and the 15 SS on the

1970 01:36:33,960 –> 01:36:36,960 other side guarding us, and he went with

1971 01:36:36,960 –> 01:36:39,280 his wife and his father, and wife too and

1972 01:36:39,280 –> 01:36:41,440 his sister went with him all the time –

1973 01:36:41,440 –> 01:36:43,440 they went over there to live on

1974 01:36:43,440 –> 01:36:44,760 on the big farm.

1975 01:36:44,760 –> 01:36:47,320 Now, what do you do with those Jews, you

1976 01:36:47,320 –> 01:36:48,880 don’t have nothing to do with the Jews,

1977 01:36:48,880 –> 01:36:51,159 what you do with the Jews – you send them to

1978 01:36:51,159 –> 01:36:53,880 work, to the farmers. You take

1979 01:36:53,880 –> 01:36:57,480 like five guys, used to take some to women.

1980 01:36:57,480 –> 01:36:59,960 She had to dig up a garden

1981 01:36:59,960 –> 01:37:02,080 for the spring, then we used to dig up the garden,

1982 01:37:02,080 –> 01:37:04,000 she used to give us a little fruit.

1983 01:37:04,000 –> 01:37:07,080 One farmer –

1984 01:37:07,080 –> 01:37:10,159 after the war I was for a few

1985 01:37:10,159 –> 01:37:11,360 years, over there,

1986 01:37:11,360 –> 01:37:14,119 in Neustadt. And I used to go to Anspeck every

1987 01:37:14,119 –> 01:37:17,760 Sunday to drive to him, was he was a

1988 01:37:17,760 –> 01:37:20,239 Dutch farmer who lived in Germany, Dutch or German,

1989 01:37:20,239 –> 01:37:22,960 he was a very nice person. We worked

1990 01:37:22,960 –> 01:37:25,159 for him, the five people, he used to give us food,

1991 01:37:25,159 –> 01:37:26,679 he used to give us potatoes for the

1992 01:37:26,679 –> 01:37:29,400 other guys, he treated us, I’m telling you, he

1993 01:37:29,400 –> 01:37:32,480 didn’t know what to do – and also

1994 01:37:32,480 –> 01:37:34,159 he wanted me to marry his daughter – I don’t

1995 01:37:34,159 –> 01:37:36,719 know why, for some reason everybody – but she schlepped

1996 01:37:36,719 –> 01:37:39,320 the fruits, she was a little thing.

1997 01:37:39,320 –> 01:37:41,560 But the one daughter – very rich – and there

1998 01:37:41,560 –> 01:37:44,159 were two Polish girls, I’ll never forget, working over

1999 01:37:44,159 –> 01:37:48,000 there and they found out I’m Polish – they

2000 01:37:48,000 –> 01:37:50,159 said “why don’t you stay in the

2001 01:37:50,159 –> 01:37:52,520 nights, with us here?” – they lived on

2002 01:37:52,520 –> 01:37:55,520 the top of the house over there. They wanted

2003 01:37:55,520 –> 01:37:58,040 to have some love, I said “you’re

2004 01:37:58,040 –> 01:38:00,639 crazy, I’ll stay here. They’ll shoot me.” I want

2005 01:38:00,639 –> 01:38:03,199 to hide you, stay here, don’t go back.

2006 01:38:03,199 –> 01:38:06,639 But I tell you, I never had the guts. But we

2007 01:38:06,639 –> 01:38:09,239 had an SS man, he was an old man already, and

2008 01:38:09,239 –> 01:38:11,239 I was the speaker between the two guys,

2009 01:38:11,239 –> 01:38:13,480 I knew German from home,

2010 01:38:13,480 –> 01:38:15,599 and he says, “Listen,

2011 01:38:15,599 –> 01:38:18,400 no monkey business. Don’t make

2012 01:38:18,400 –> 01:38:20,719 any pulls. The war is going every day, it’s

2013 01:38:20,719 –> 01:38:23,920 going to end. Just make sure you

2014 01:38:23,920 –> 01:38:26,440 survive. Don’t run away. Don’t ask.. “

2015 01:38:26,440 –> 01:38:31,760 Anyhow, on the 2nd of May 1945,

2016 01:38:31,760 –> 01:38:36,920 Mr. Schmidt, our Lagerführer, brought us to Neustadt,

2017 01:38:36,920 –> 01:38:40,400 Neustadt used to be a base, a U-boat base, one

2018 01:38:40,400 –> 01:38:43,719 two … U-boat base, military base.

2019 01:38:43,719 –> 01:38:47,599 And in Neustadt we saw from far

2020 01:38:47,599 –> 01:38:50,599 away a big ship standing, the big ship

2021 01:38:50,599 –> 01:38:52,760 was named Cap Arcona. Used to – before the war,

2022 01:38:52,760 –> 01:38:54,880 used to be the Hamburg-New York line, Hamburg-

2023 01:38:54,880 –> 01:38:58,360 America line, used to go, travel –

2024 01:38:58,360 –> 01:39:02,360 it was about a 27 or 26,000 ship, a passenger ship.

2025 01:39:02,360 –> 01:39:05,040 And he says “we’re going to bring

2026 01:39:05,040 –> 01:39:08,000 you on the ship and you’re

2027 01:39:08,000 –> 01:39:14,199 going to Sweden” – now before we came to

2028 01:39:14,199 –> 01:39:16,920 Neustadt we were in that place, the same

2029 01:39:16,920 –> 01:39:19,199 place, and they came – the Red Cross

2030 01:39:19,199 –> 01:39:21,360 International Red Cross – came.

2031 01:39:21,360 –> 01:39:24,360 What was humiliating –

2032 01:39:24,360 –> 01:39:26,320 Westjuden – they looked for Jews from

2033 01:39:26,320 –> 01:39:29,800 Western Europe, who speak Dutch

2034 01:39:29,800 –> 01:39:32,480 French, English foreign language.

2035 01:39:32,480 –> 01:39:34,000 Even if you were Polish-Jewish you might get

2036 01:39:34,000 –> 01:39:35,960 away, they took them away. In fact they

2037 01:39:35,960 –> 01:39:38,360 took the Western Jews away, the Eastern

2038 01:39:38,360 –> 01:39:40,599 Jews like myself, the Polish Jew has no rights

2039 01:39:40,599 –> 01:39:42,440 to live – nobody wants to even protect him.

2040 01:39:42,440 –> 01:39:44,800 They just gave us a

2041 01:39:44,800 –> 01:39:46,199 few cigarettes and a few pieces of

2042 01:39:46,199 –> 01:39:48,080 chocolate and they took away –

2043 01:39:48,080 –> 01:39:50,040 Who were these, the Americans?

2044 01:39:50,040 –> 01:39:52,719 No, they were Swedes or Swiss, I

2045 01:39:52,719 –> 01:39:55,440 don’t know, not American. This was an international –

2046 01:39:55,440 –> 01:39:58,760 I think Swiss Red Cross.

2047 01:39:58,760 –> 01:40:02,119 The rest of the people, they ignored they

2048 01:40:02,119 –> 01:40:05,199 picked a few people who knew a foreign language,

2049 01:40:05,199 –> 01:40:09,880 they said yeah I’m a Frenchman, parlez francais, oui, and they got away.

2050 01:40:09,880 –> 01:40:13,159 He comes to us and we, with the rest of us,

2051 01:40:13,159 –> 01:40:16,719 about 300 people, they took us to

2052 01:40:16,719 –> 01:40:19,360 the harbor over there,

2053 01:40:19,360 –> 01:40:22,239 we see there’s a German Marine,

2054 01:40:22,239 –> 01:40:23,920 the Navy over there, guarding,

2055 01:40:23,920 –> 01:40:25,440 and the big ship and they took us off the

2056 01:40:25,440 –> 01:40:28,320 tow boat, tug boat, about 150 each one. And they

2057 01:40:28,320 –> 01:40:30,520 brought us over there to the ship.

2058 01:40:30,520 –> 01:40:34,639 We come to the ship and the SS says,

2059 01:40:34,639 –> 01:40:36,360 this officer standing guard over there,

2060 01:40:36,360 –> 01:40:38,159 and put a big spotlight he says “what’s

2061 01:40:38,159 –> 01:40:40,719 wrong?” – “We have here 300 people,

2062 01:40:40,719 –> 01:40:43,040 you have to take them.”

2063 01:40:43,040 –> 01:40:44,880 He says I cannot take those 300 people, I have

2064 01:40:44,880 –> 01:40:46,679 8,000 prisoners here on board, where do

2065 01:40:46,679 –> 01:40:50,639 you want me to take them. He went back and

2066 01:40:50,639 –> 01:40:52,599 the port commandant gave him a call

2067 01:40:52,599 –> 01:40:54,840 and he went back and he took us and the

2068 01:40:54,840 –> 01:40:58,400 luck was that we – all the prisoners were

2069 01:40:58,400 –> 01:41:00,199 under deck and we were the last one

2070 01:41:00,199 –> 01:41:03,320 on the highest spot, they put us

2071 01:41:03,320 –> 01:41:09,719 10 people in a small cabin for one person.

2072 01:41:09,719 –> 01:41:11,920 And the ship was anchored

2073 01:41:11,920 –> 01:41:13,800 maybe 5 kilometers out because it was a big

2074 01:41:13,800 –> 01:41:15,840 ship, and it was a small port, for

2075 01:41:15,840 –> 01:41:18,199 fishermen – we cannot go. And we were

2076 01:41:18,199 –> 01:41:20,119 standing over there in the morning on

2077 01:41:20,119 –> 01:41:21,320 May 3rd.

2078 01:41:21,320 –> 01:41:24,800 Oh, boom, shooting, what’s going on.

2079 01:41:24,800 –> 01:41:28,239 You wouldn’t even believe. And the

2080 01:41:28,239 –> 01:41:30,000 planes are coming and the Germans are

2081 01:41:30,000 –> 01:41:34,000 shooting in and for some reason they saw

2082 01:41:34,000 –> 01:41:35,840 such a big target they didn’t

2083 01:41:35,840 –> 01:41:38,239 know what was on it – the British,

2084 01:41:38,239 –> 01:41:40,000 they bombed the ship.

2085 01:41:40,000 –> 01:41:43,719 And can you imagine the

2086 01:41:43,719 –> 01:41:47,679 ship, 8,000 prisoners on it, and then

2087 01:41:47,679 –> 01:41:50,440 SS on top of it – machine guns –

2088 01:41:50,440 –> 01:41:53,920 and the 8,000 people the ship burns on

2089 01:41:53,920 –> 01:41:55,760 top, all the buildings on top

2090 01:41:55,760 –> 01:41:58,679 start burning from the bombs what they throw over there.

2091 01:41:58,679 –> 01:42:02,119 And most were Poles and Russian prisoners,

2092 01:42:02,119 –> 01:42:05,520 we were actually the only Jews,

2093 01:42:05,520 –> 01:42:07,520 300, 250 peoples.

2094 01:42:07,520 –> 01:42:11,440 And you couldn’t open the door – the door

2095 01:42:11,440 –> 01:42:15,440 opened outside in the cabin –

2096 01:42:15,440 –> 01:42:17,920 you couldn’t open the door outside

2097 01:42:17,920 –> 01:42:21,040 because it was all full with people

2098 01:42:21,040 –> 01:42:24,920 trying they fought the Germans, the fought the machine guns,

2099 01:42:24,920 –> 01:42:27,040 they fought the SS, everybody tried to escape

2100 01:42:27,040 –> 01:42:29,560 and they go out and –

2101 01:42:29,560 –> 01:42:34,840 the screaming, and we didn’t see nothing, we didn’t know

2102 01:42:34,840 –> 01:42:37,040 nothing, we couldn’t get out. 10 people

2103 01:42:37,040 –> 01:42:39,159 trapped over in the cabin and we

2104 01:42:39,159 –> 01:42:45,840 only feel the ship – listing.

2105 01:42:45,840 –> 01:42:51,800 And in the very end, four Russian and one

2106 01:42:51,800 –> 01:42:54,199 Jewish guy, Stefan, from our concentration camp,

2107 01:42:54,199 –> 01:42:58,480 for some reason, they swam the 5 kilometers, May, in the Ostsee,

2108 01:42:58,480 –> 01:43:03,360 to the port. The whole ship went down, only

2109 01:43:03,360 –> 01:43:05,679 a small spot, you know a ship

2110 01:43:05,679 –> 01:43:08,440 goes like that, and it was not so deep, only

2111 01:43:08,440 –> 01:43:10,719 a small spot on the top.

2112 01:43:10,719 –> 01:43:13,920 And looking we see the skies.

2113 01:43:13,920 –> 01:43:17,360 We see the skies, we didn’t know

2114 01:43:17,360 –> 01:43:19,360 what’s happening, he opens the round, you

2115 01:43:19,360 –> 01:43:21,960 know – the window. One guy

2116 01:43:21,960 –> 01:43:23,679 wants to go out – he cannot go out, almost

2117 01:43:23,679 –> 01:43:25,280 broke his bones, they started to

2118 01:43:25,280 –> 01:43:27,520 push him out – he can’t, he was –

2119 01:43:27,520 –> 01:43:30,560 I was always a slim person

2120 01:43:30,560 –> 01:43:34,520 and I went out and I go out and the ship

2121 01:43:34,520 –> 01:43:38,040 burned was terrible, but what the ship was

2122 01:43:38,040 –> 01:43:40,760 anchored to was big wooden post,

2123 01:43:40,760 –> 01:43:43,199 tremendous big, like that. It was

2124 01:43:43,199 –> 01:43:47,119 with a big anchor to the post

2125 01:43:47,119 –> 01:43:53,760 like big lines …

2126 01:43:53,760 –> 01:43:56,040 And I was all naked because I

2127 01:43:56,040 –> 01:43:57,560 had to take the clothes off,

2128 01:43:57,560 –> 01:43:59,840 and all naked, like a monkey, I went to

2129 01:43:59,840 –> 01:44:02,560 the big line, walk through, and

2130 01:44:02,560 –> 01:44:05,840 sat on the middle – there was, each one was

2131 01:44:05,840 –> 01:44:07,719 heavy like that like five, six, 10 of them,

2132 01:44:07,719 –> 01:44:09,679 like a small island, that would

2133 01:44:09,679 –> 01:44:12,199 anchor the ship. And I was

2134 01:44:12,199 –> 01:44:17,280 sitting up there and here, you don’t hear a sound.

2135 01:44:17,280 –> 01:44:22,719 The people – after hours – almost got

2136 01:44:22,719 –> 01:44:27,080 dark, the British got wind and it was a

2137 01:44:27,080 –> 01:44:30,119 ship with prisoners on it. And they took

2138 01:44:30,119 –> 01:44:33,119 the fishermen, they came out, and they

2139 01:44:33,119 –> 01:44:36,599 took 37 people off and I was the one kid.

2140 01:44:36,599 –> 01:44:39,520 I was like a monkey over there. And they

2141 01:44:39,520 –> 01:44:41,280 took me on the boat, I was completely

2142 01:44:41,280 –> 01:44:44,320 naked, they gave me a blanket.

2143 01:44:44,320 –> 01:44:46,840 I never remember – my sister in school,

2144 01:44:46,840 –> 01:44:49,400 she learned a little English, and started –

2145 01:44:49,400 –> 01:44:51,440 And there was a Navy – there was one of

2146 01:44:51,440 –> 01:44:54,360 the tanks, there was a big beret, he was a tank –

2147 01:44:54,360 –> 01:44:56,840 he gave me a whole bag of biscuits,

2148 01:44:56,840 –> 01:44:59,800 like a tin can, and was a

2149 01:44:59,800 –> 01:45:01,920 Navy officer came, with a staff …

2150 01:45:01,920 –> 01:45:05,000 another officer, and he came down and

2151 01:45:05,000 –> 01:45:08,400 I said to him, he said “how do you feel?”

2152 01:45:08,400 –> 01:45:11,119 in English, I don’t know, I understood a little,

2153 01:45:11,119 –> 01:45:13,760 I said “sir”, I kissed his hand I said “we

2154 01:45:13,760 –> 01:45:16,800 waited 5 years for you.”

2155 01:45:17,599 –> 01:45:21,679 and I had pneumonia, I was cold, I was –

2156 01:45:21,679 –> 01:45:24,080 they took me to the hospital

2157 01:45:24,080 –> 01:45:26,880 over there, and as the war ended it was

2158 01:45:26,880 –> 01:45:28,599 like nothing happened – the Germans,

2159 01:45:28,599 –> 01:45:31,040 right away, treat you like a patient –

2160 01:45:31,040 –> 01:45:36,960 it’s the – the change was so drastic, the

2161 01:45:36,960 –> 01:45:39,639 racial policies, you see after the war the

2162 01:45:39,639 –> 01:45:42,520 German women with black soldiers,

2163 01:45:42,520 –> 01:45:46,440 it’s like everything – like there was no

2164 01:45:46,440 –> 01:45:49,520 Hitler, was no Nazis, nobody was a Nazi,

2165 01:45:49,520 –> 01:45:51,159 everything was like “Mitgang” as they

2166 01:45:51,159 –> 01:45:53,520 call it, like they have to run after him,

2167 01:45:53,520 –> 01:45:55,599 everybody denies it – we didn’t know nothing, we

2168 01:45:55,599 –> 01:45:58,639 didn’t know nothing, we were – it was not

2169 01:45:58,639 –> 01:46:01,080 our fault. I went to the hospital, it was all

2170 01:46:01,080 –> 01:46:03,480 German staff, they treated me like a real patient.

2171 01:46:03,480 –> 01:46:07,639 Maybe they were afraid of the British.

2172 01:46:07,639 –> 01:46:11,360 And this was my ordeal that I survived.

2173 01:46:11,360 –> 01:46:13,320 How I survived, I don’t know, but that’s

2174 01:46:13,320 –> 01:46:15,679 what I’m telling you – from 8,000

2175 01:46:15,679 –> 01:46:18,920 people, 37 they took off the boat, and the rest all

2176 01:46:18,920 –> 01:46:22,000 drowned like mice. Only the five swam. The next

2177 01:46:22,000 –> 01:46:24,119 year, I was over there in Neustadt and we used to

2178 01:46:24,119 –> 01:46:25,920 go, it was normal after a year, we used

2179 01:46:25,920 –> 01:46:27,880 to go swim – you couldn’t swim, you’d get a

2180 01:46:27,880 –> 01:46:31,560 terrible rash. And the next spring,

2181 01:46:31,560 –> 01:46:34,239 the bodies used to swim out all blown up

2182 01:46:34,239 –> 01:46:36,280 like that and the British used to take the German

2183 01:46:36,280 –> 01:46:38,400 prisoners of war to pick them up,

2184 01:46:38,400 –> 01:46:41,000 the bodies over there.

2185 01:46:41,000 –> 01:46:43,000 The same year, the next year, they brought

2186 01:46:43,000 –> 01:46:45,440 underwater divers with special cutting

2187 01:46:45,440 –> 01:46:47,639 tools and they opened up the ship,

2188 01:46:47,639 –> 01:46:49,599 the whole of the ship, and started

2189 01:46:49,599 –> 01:46:54,840 taking out the –

2190 01:46:55,119 –> 01:46:58,280 and I understand there’s a guy,

2191 01:46:58,280 –> 01:47:01,280 Adam my foreman and everything,

2192 01:47:01,280 –> 01:47:03,080 his brother, his two brothers with him,

2193 01:47:03,080 –> 01:47:05,360 they all died over there by trying to get out.

2194 01:47:05,360 –> 01:47:08,480 For some reason, if the ship would go to

2195 01:47:08,480 –> 01:47:12,360 the other side, I don’t know –

2196 01:47:12,360 –> 01:47:20,520 I believe – I don’t know – and that’s what

2197 01:47:20,520 –> 01:47:23,119 I also told you. I was sure after the war,

2198 01:47:23,119 –> 01:47:25,320 the world is going to hold on my hands and

2199 01:47:25,320 –> 01:47:27,560 nothing were they going to refuse you.

2200 01:47:27,560 –> 01:47:31,320 What they did to you, they put you in a DP camp,

2201 01:47:31,320 –> 01:47:33,800 and they gave you a soup a day and said

2202 01:47:33,800 –> 01:47:35,840 “my dear friend you’re on your own, that’s

2203 01:47:35,840 –> 01:47:39,199 it be happy, be happy you survived.”

2204 01:47:39,199 –> 01:47:41,440 Yes, they gave you every night, it was a

2205 01:47:41,440 –> 01:47:43,080 military camp they have a big cinema,

2206 01:47:43,080 –> 01:47:44,480 every night they give you a German –

2207 01:47:44,480 –> 01:47:47,639 these comedies, a movie and that’s

2208 01:47:47,639 –> 01:47:50,679 what it – and Jews were

2209 01:47:50,679 –> 01:47:53,000 lucky because we have the …

2210 01:47:53,000 –> 01:47:55,639 the United Jewish Relief, and they sent

2211 01:47:55,639 –> 01:47:57,840 everything, they – a cigarette

2212 01:47:57,840 –> 01:48:01,840 they had coffee, …

2213 01:48:01,840 –> 01:48:04,719 Was the DP camp in Neustadt? Yes. And how long

2214 01:48:04,719 –> 01:48:11,400 were you there? I was there for about 2 and a half years.

2215 01:48:11,400 –> 01:48:15,440 I worked for the Jewish Relief Unit, it was a

2216 01:48:15,440 –> 01:48:18,239 British, Mr. Cart was in charge, it was a

2217 01:48:18,239 –> 01:48:21,000 British unit. Also I was like an

2218 01:48:21,000 –> 01:48:23,599 interpreter, all these Jewish

2219 01:48:23,599 –> 01:48:26,719 to English, and we

2220 01:48:26,719 –> 01:48:29,239 had some stuff from Ireland Jewish …

2221 01:48:29,239 –> 01:48:31,920 And one Rosenberg she was from

2222 01:48:31,920 –> 01:48:39,880 South Africa. But I could go to

2223 01:48:39,880 –> 01:48:41,560 Britain, be adopted by a Jewish

2224 01:48:41,560 –> 01:48:44,440 family, go to Britain. But I decide no.

2225 01:48:44,440 –> 01:48:47,440 After what I went – I’m going to go to Israel

2226 01:48:47,440 –> 01:48:52,520 you know to be my own, it’s time –

2227 01:48:52,520 –> 01:48:54,159 Israel started fighting

2228 01:48:54,159 –> 01:48:57,840 for independence and I decide that my

2229 01:48:57,840 –> 01:48:59,639 future would be with the Jewish

2230 01:48:59,639 –> 01:49:04,400 people. Did you go into the Haganah? Yes, in Bergen-Belsen I joined.

2231 01:49:04,400 –> 01:49:09,679 I went to the Kibbutz, and over there I joined the Haganah.

2232 01:49:10,560 –> 01:49:14,679 And you lived in Israel how long?

2233 01:49:14,679 –> 01:49:16,280 For 19 years.

2234 01:49:16,280 –> 01:49:18,840 Where and what did you do?

2235 01:49:18,840 –> 01:49:23,199 First I worked in the electric

2236 01:49:23,199 –> 01:49:26,239 company, in the Israeli electric company.

2237 01:49:26,239 –> 01:49:29,440 And I was two years in the military, 1948 I

2238 01:49:29,440 –> 01:49:31,639 fought the 1948 war.

2239 01:49:31,639 –> 01:49:41,920 After, I worked in the Palestine electric company for five years.

2240 01:49:41,920 –> 01:49:46,000 After, I had my own shop for 10 years.

2241 01:49:46,000 –> 01:49:49,880 Until 1967, I fought in the 1956 war,

2242 01:49:49,880 –> 01:49:52,920 and I fought in the 1967 war in November

2243 01:49:52,920 –> 01:49:56,480 1967 I came here to the United States.

2244 01:49:56,480 –> 01:49:58,880 And your family – you married in Israel?

2245 01:49:58,880 –> 01:50:02,919 I married, my children are born in Israel, my wife is Israeli born.

2246 01:50:02,920 –> 01:50:09,239 So you haven’t been far from war all of your life?

2247 01:50:09,239 –> 01:50:13,880 Yes, you see, you can imagine that it

2248 01:50:13,880 –> 01:50:15,840 took many people decide different

2249 01:50:15,840 –> 01:50:18,159 because I was not so idealistic they

2250 01:50:18,159 –> 01:50:20,840 think different because after all I lost

2251 01:50:20,840 –> 01:50:23,880 everybody and I – war, a

2252 01:50:23,880 –> 01:50:27,119 bullet has no address – you go to

2253 01:50:27,119 –> 01:50:29,800 war you can get killed and wiped out

2254 01:50:29,800 –> 01:50:32,880 and then – 6,000 died only in the

2255 01:50:32,880 –> 01:50:34,880 Independence war – can you imagine, at that time

2256 01:50:34,880 –> 01:50:37,040 10% of the population – many of them were

2257 01:50:37,040 –> 01:50:39,560 new immigrants that no brother, no sister, nobody

2258 01:50:39,560 –> 01:50:41,920 knows about. I had some cousin over there

2259 01:50:41,920 –> 01:50:44,239 in Israel, at least somebody would

2260 01:50:44,239 –> 01:50:45,960 cry a little after me,

2261 01:50:45,960 –> 01:50:49,119 remember me. But that’s it – I

2262 01:50:49,119 –> 01:50:52,000 just disregarded everything – I

2263 01:50:52,000 –> 01:50:58,599 said no, after I went wrong, and this was a big plus

2264 01:50:58,599 –> 01:51:02,040 psychologically – they give you a big boost

2265 01:51:02,040 –> 01:51:05,800 because I know people who

2266 01:51:05,800 –> 01:51:07,560 went to other countries, who went to

2267 01:51:07,560 –> 01:51:09,480 concentration camps, they had nightmares,

2268 01:51:09,480 –> 01:51:13,560 they can’t forget – they feel they didn’t

2269 01:51:13,560 –> 01:51:15,719 feel good in the environment, there

2270 01:51:15,719 –> 01:51:19,800 was a strange –

2271 01:51:19,800 –> 01:51:23,199 Israel gave you the pride,

2272 01:51:23,199 –> 01:51:25,960 give you a prospect, give you an

2273 01:51:25,960 –> 01:51:29,560 outlook, give you – a meaning to your life.

2274 01:51:29,560 –> 01:51:32,599 You were proud – you didn’t go – in

2275 01:51:32,599 –> 01:51:35,880 1956 war, my son was born, only a month old,

2276 01:51:35,880 –> 01:51:38,960 he wasn’t even – he was circumcised

2277 01:51:38,960 –> 01:51:42,280 Wednesday and Thursday I took

2278 01:51:42,280 –> 01:51:44,280 my kit bag and I went to war, that’s it.

2279 01:51:44,280 –> 01:51:47,599 Kiss my wife and this is not a

2280 01:51:47,599 –> 01:51:49,800 thing, you’re a soldier, you’re

2281 01:51:49,800 –> 01:51:53,119 in your own country, that’s it.

2282 01:51:53,119 –> 01:51:54,960 Over the years have you found

2283 01:51:54,960 –> 01:51:58,119 it easier to talk about the Holocaust or

2284 01:51:58,119 –> 01:52:00,040 to talk about the things you talked

2285 01:52:00,040 –> 01:52:02,719 about here or is it hard for you to?

2286 01:52:02,719 –> 01:52:06,480 I don’t talk because you

2287 01:52:06,480 –> 01:52:08,920 talk about it –

2288 01:52:08,920 –> 01:52:12,800 it’s – you have kids and

2289 01:52:12,800 –> 01:52:16,560 it can bring resentment toward

2290 01:52:16,560 –> 01:52:18,560 other people, you know how it is.

2291 01:52:18,560 –> 01:52:21,960 I don’t want to poison their life.

2292 01:52:21,960 –> 01:52:24,719 I went through it, it was a –

2293 01:52:24,719 –> 01:52:28,079 but I told them always, don’t

2294 01:52:28,079 –> 01:52:32,159 forget, you were born a

2295 01:52:32,159 –> 01:52:35,159 Jew, you will live a Jew, you will die a

2296 01:52:35,159 –> 01:52:37,280 Jew. Nothing going to – don’t try

2297 01:52:37,280 –> 01:52:39,679 even to forget it, because others don’t let

2298 01:52:39,679 –> 01:52:42,119 you forget it. That’s it. You

2299 01:52:42,119 –> 01:52:45,560 stand up for who you are and be proud of it.

2300 01:52:45,560 –> 01:52:47,520 If you think you change your name, you

2301 01:52:47,520 –> 01:52:49,040 change you’ll manage, you change your

2302 01:52:49,040 –> 01:52:51,760 friends – nothing is going to help you.

2303 01:52:51,760 –> 01:52:53,920 Just stand up for your rights and that’s it.

2304 01:52:53,920 –> 01:52:57,679 And if somebody tries to tell

2305 01:52:57,679 –> 01:52:59,679 you something, that he’s better than you,

2306 01:52:59,679 –> 01:53:02,159 then let them know that he’s not. You don’t

2307 01:53:02,159 –> 01:53:04,920 have to feel …

2308 01:53:04,920 –> 01:53:07,480 human being, and you …

2309 01:53:07,480 –> 01:53:09,000 if you want to have your rights,

2310 01:53:09,000 –> 01:53:10,960 you have to fight for it, and if you have

2311 01:53:10,960 –> 01:53:14,159 to take a gun, and fight for it,

2312 01:53:14,159 –> 01:53:16,320 then you take a gun and fight for it.

2313 01:53:16,320 –> 01:53:19,199 Because that’s it or you get killed or

2314 01:53:19,199 –> 01:53:22,119 you kill somebody. There’s no way out.

2315 01:53:22,119 –> 01:53:25,280 Because the Jews, what the Jews went through,

2316 01:53:25,280 –> 01:53:28,000 they always accommodate

2317 01:53:28,000 –> 01:53:31,119 everybody, they always try to

2318 01:53:31,119 –> 01:53:33,320 smooth things out, they always try to pay

2319 01:53:33,320 –> 01:53:35,599 off to let them live, they always make –

2320 01:53:35,599 –> 01:53:39,360 find peace, and it doesn’t work.

2321 01:53:39,360 –> 01:53:42,040 It hasn’t worked for 2,000 years and it’s

2322 01:53:42,040 –> 01:53:45,199 not going to work now. That’s it.

2323 01:53:45,199 –> 01:53:47,520 Thank you very much, Mr. Biezunski, for a very

2324 01:53:47,520 –> 01:53:50,719 informative and interesting story. And thank

2325 01:53:50,719 –> 01:53:55,599 you for sharing it with us. You’re welcome.